# Men's rights in certain abortion cases **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247 "2005-10-07T22:33:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BlueKangaroo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@BlueKangaroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueKangaroo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/101 "2005-10-10T04:48:09Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > You’re asking what happens if a woman gets pregnant, has sex with someone else, but claims I’m responsible for the pregnancy? Frankly, I think I’d have a pretty-iron clad defense that I didn’t cause the pregnancy, but leaving that aside, I still don’t get the question. If you can explain it to the scientifically less-able (I couldn’t find “partheogenesis” in the dictionary so I kind of don’t get the whole example) it would be appreciated. [Parthenogenesis](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=parthenogenesis) is the formation of a new individual via an unfertilized gamete, usually an egg. It happens mostly in plants and arthropods, though there are some cool lizards that do it too. In effect, parthenogenesis makes clones, so that woman’s baby would be a clone of that woman. Generally, I’m not sure what the point of the example is, as there may be shared DNA between you and the baby/fetus by virtue of both being human, but an RFLP analysis (or a short tandem repeat analysis) should demonstrate that it was a parthenogenic birth eventually. It’d take a while, because the lab would be convinced that they had contaminated samples, but they’d figure it out. Or they’d arrest her for experimenting in human cloning, which is currently illegal in the US. Either way, you’re not on the hook for child support. Nevermind that you’re female. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/102 "2005-10-10T05:01:29Z")
**Diogenes** you don’t appear to be addressing the question of _why_ the man is committed at the point of conception. That is the real issue. At that time there still remains a legal choice as to whether conception will proceed to birth. That choice is the woman’s. The question is not _what_ is currently allowed and required. It is _why_ the man becomes obligated to support the consequences of a choice he _did not support_, and where there is a legal alternative. Speaking personally I support the current regimen of obligations, but I have to say \*\* Stratocaster\*\* has authored the better argument in this thread, clear and to the point. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Rio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Mr.Rio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Rio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/103 "2005-10-10T05:05:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They both have an equal choice in the matter, the choices are just made at different times. We must have different definitions of equal. Both the man and the woman have made an equal choice to have sex. Man 1, woman 1. The score is tied. Condom fails, conception occurs. The woman now has a difficult choice to make. She has several months to make it. I woldn’t want to be in that position - but it’s not equal. I should probably add that I am not in favor of encouraging any man to forgo his responsibiltiy as a father. I am no more advocating that than someone who favors abortion rights encourages women to have abortions. What I object to are arguments like “it’s the man’s fault if a woman gets pregnant” or “it’s biology, live with it”, or “it’s for the good of society”, or “a child needs a man in his life”, or " don’t have sex". And these from people who seem like they would proudly consider themselves progressive. Why is it so difficult to admit that a man might have some rights after he pulls his pants back on? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/104 "2005-10-10T05:12:53Z")
The decision to have sex is not when the woman has to make a final choice whether to be a parent. That moment is only crucial for the man. At the moment of sex, the choice about parenthood is man 1, woman 0. The woman does not “score” until she decides whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term. Choosing to have sex does not carry the same finality for the woman as for the man. At the time of intercourse, the woman has yet to have made a final choice. Both people get one choice. Just because the woman can make it later does not mean that the man’s choice is any less binding or any less freely made. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/105 "2005-10-10T05:16:19Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Let’s discuss, for a moment, the concept of implied consent. In the context of consensual sex, this has important implications for the party packing the sperm. > > It goes like this: if you’re the party with the sperm, and if you have consensual sex with a party packing eggs, then as part of Terms of Use/Terms of Service, you’re accepting the potential liablilities of any and all reproductive consequences of said act of comingling your sperm and her eggs. I sure don’t recall signing any Terms of Service before sex. If you’re referring to the laws as they currently exist–having sex with knowledge of the law means you implicitly accept the consequences of that law–then I’m afraid that’s irrelevant; the law can be changed. > [@Campion](#): > > Can you explain this? They each have the same “input,” they just get to give their “input” at a different time and in a different manner. Women can avoid having to care for a child by choosing not to have sex. Men can also do that. Women can avoid having to care for a child by choosing to abort or give it up for adoption. Men cannot. Final score: women 2, men 1. > [@](#): > > Second, we’re not encouraging women “to have kids no one else wants.” We’re permitting a woman to retain bodily autonomy and integrity. No, that’s what keeping abortion legal does. Making it financially easier for women to have kids that no one else wants, on the other hand, has nothing to do with bodily autonomy. Don’t you think the knowledge that a man will have to subsidize a woman’s decision to raise a child makes it more likely that she’ll choose to do so? If your neighbor had to step in and make your car payments when you couldn’t afford them, wouldn’t that make you more likely to buy a car you couldn’t afford? > [@](#): > > The unspoken assumptions running underneath all this are pretty bleak. Women are only out for money. They have children so they can sucker some man into giving them cash. Money paid for child support goes into the woman’s pocket for her “surf and turf” and provides no benefit for the child. I don’t know who you think is making those assumptions, but it sure isn’t me. My point is that in many cases, there wouldn’t _be_ a child if the woman weren’t able to force a man to pay for it. > [@](#): > > I think the bottom line is that people are going to disagree about what’s equitable. I think equity must take into account what’s fair under the circumstances, in light of biology, while it appears that others believe that equity requires everyone to have the same choices at the same time, regardless of their circumstances. Again, child support has nothing to do with biology. Dollar bills did not evolve to jump out of a man’s pocket every month. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/106 "2005-10-10T05:19:04Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > **Diogenes** you don’t appear to be addressing the question of _why_ the man is committed at the point of conception. They can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe their premise is that the man should know better. Why they cannot put that litmus test on the woman, I have no clue. The extra risks the woman has during pregnancy is irrelevant if you agree that woman has the same capacity as a man to “know better” than to have sex at the risk of getting pregnant. It makes no sense to me, that’s fer sure. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Rio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Mr.Rio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Rio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/107 "2005-10-10T05:20:19Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > The unspoken assumptions running underneath all this are pretty bleak. Women are only out for money. They have children so they can sucker some man into giving them cash. Money paid for child support goes into the woman’s pocket for her “surf and turf” and provides no benefit for the child. There seems to be a refusal to recognize that these are the implicit assumptions, and that’s why people are arguing for a walk-away for men. That’s actually really depressing. The other depressing unspoken assumption is that men will abandon their children if given a choice. I don’t agree with any of the unspoken assumptions. (and I think you misinterpreted the "surf and turf example - I did too the first time I read it.) ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/108 "2005-10-10T05:24:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The decision to have sex is not when the woman has to make a final choice whether to be a parent. That moment is only crucial for the man. If by “parent”, we mean someone with parental rights and obligations under law, then this inequality can be easily resolved. Just let the man make his final choice later. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/109 "2005-10-10T05:25:34Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > **Diogenes** you don’t appear to be addressing the question of _why_ the man is committed at the point of conception. Because the moment before the moment of conception is the last possible moment that a man can opt out of becoming a parent (or risking the possibility) without imposing on the physical autonomy of the woman. It’s the last point at which the man has any biological involvement. That involvement continues after sex for the woman, therefore she has more time to make her decision. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/110 "2005-10-10T05:27:28Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > If by “parent”, we mean someone with parental rights and obligations under law, then this inequality can be easily resolved. Just let the man make his final choice later. That would be impossible to do without imposing on the physical autonomy of the woman. The moment of conception cannot be undone, therefore the man’s choice is made (and made freely) at the moment of ejaculation. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Rio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Mr.Rio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Rio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/111 "2005-10-10T05:28:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The decision to have sex is not when the woman has to make a final choice whether to be a parent. That moment is only crucial for the man. At the moment of sex, the choice about parenthood is man 1, woman 0. The woman does not “score” until she decides whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term. Choosing to have sex does not carry the same finality for the woman as for the man. At the time of intercourse, the woman has yet to have made a final choice. Both people get one choice. Just because the woman can make it later does not mean that the man’s choice is any less binding or any less freely made. You are correct that the woman has a later opportunity to make a final choice. The word final implies previous opportunities as well. The man’s final opportunity to make a choice coincides with the woman’s first opportunity to make a choice . It is not equal. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/112 "2005-10-10T05:30:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That would be impossible to do without imposing on the physical autonomy of the woman. No, allowing the man to opt out of his parental rights and obligations has absolutely no effect on the woman’s physical autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/113 "2005-10-10T05:33:11Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > They can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe their premise is that the man should know better. > > Why they cannot put that litmus test on the woman, I have no clue. > > The extra risks the woman has during pregnancy is irrelevant if you agree that woman has the same capacity as a man to “know better” than to have sex at the risk of getting pregnant. > > It makes no sense to me, that’s fer sure. Fortunately, the woman does not have to take any risks during pregnancy because she can simply terminate it. The woman has no obligation to “know better” before pregnancy because it’s her own body that’s at issue. Her decision does not have to be made before sex. Ony the man’s does. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/114 "2005-10-10T05:42:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Fortunately, the woman does not have to take any risks during pregnancy because she can simply terminate it. The woman has no obligation to “know better” before pregnancy because it’s her own body that’s at issue. Her decision does not have to be made before sex. Ony the man’s does. Your just repeating _ad nauseam_ what the law currently is. You are not addressing why that should be so. Believe me, we know what the law currently says. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/115 "2005-10-10T05:46:24Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > No, allowing the man to opt out of his parental rights and obligations has absolutely no effect on the woman’s physical autonomy. First, we’re not talking about his rights. He can opt out of his rights all he wants. His obligations are a completely different matter. Second, if a man’s sperm results in a pregancy then he has already quite voluntarily affected another person’s body. After that point, he has no right to tell the woman what to do about the pregnancy but if she does bear a child, then both parents are equally responsible for creating it and equally responsible for taking care of it. To say that the man can opt out after pregnancy is to say that the man has no responsibility whatsoever and that the woman is 100% responsible for any live births. Clearly this would be a vile and reprehensible system. Both people have an equal opportunity to opt out of being parents. Their options are simply exercised at different times. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/116 "2005-10-10T05:48:28Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Believe me, we know what the law currently says. Then you probably know what the reasoning behind the law is, so why ask him? Look up the rulings instead, and tell why you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/117 "2005-10-10T05:48:57Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Your just repeating _ad nauseam_ what the law currently is. You are not addressing why that should be so. Believe me, we know what the law currently says. I have made no statements whatsoever about the law. All I’m doing is explaining how biology dictates respective obligations. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/118 "2005-10-10T05:52:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To say that the man can opt out after pregnancy is to say that the man has no responsibility whatsoever and that the woman is 100% responsible for any live births. Clearly this would be a vile and reprehensible system. No, it means that the woman is 100% responsible for her choice to have sex and to carry to term. She made both of those choices, remember? If she does not want to be 100% responsible for the child, she can opt out. No one is forcing her to pay for her first choice. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/119 "2005-10-10T05:58:22Z")
Her first choice is irrelevant. For the woman, the choice to have sex is not a choice to become a parent. For the man it is. Each person is equally able to opt out of becoming a parent. The man by not putting his sperm in anyone and the woman by terminating any unwanted pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/120 "2005-10-10T05:58:24Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To say that the man can opt out after pregnancy is to say that the man has no responsibility whatsoever and that the woman is 100% responsible for any live births. Nonsense. It only says that the man has no responsibility for children that were carried to term over his objections - children that only the woman wanted. > [@](#): > > Both people have an equal opportunity to opt out of being parents. Their options are simply exercised at different times. It has been repeatedly pointed out to you how the opportunities are not equal. One party has two opportunities, the other only has one. We could easily change the law to grant both people equal opportunities to opt out of _legally_ being parents, without interfering with anyone’s bodily autonomy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247.md?page=7)