# Men's rights in certain abortion cases **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247 "2005-10-07T22:33:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Faust\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e56c9b/32.png) [@Faust\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faust_1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/121 "2005-10-10T06:00:18Z")
**Diogenes** is making perhaps the single worst argument I have ever seen in support of a correct position. 1. No, it is not “the man’s fault that the woman is pregnant.” 2. No, mandatory child support for unwanted children is not dictated by biology, nor did it evolve into existence via natural selection. 3. No, the opportunities for making a choice are not equal. The law could of course be changed so that men got to make their choice at a later date as well. Biology is not the reason we don’t so change the law. Ridiculous arguments aside, however, the fact remains that, for practical reasons, the current system is better than any alternatives I have heard. Someone has to support the kids, and the obvious choice is to lay that responsibility at the door of the father. Even though in some cases, such as when the father was upfront about not wanting kids and used protection, I can definitely feel sympathy, the logistics of the situation are such that the burden must fall on him. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/122 "2005-10-10T06:01:16Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Then you probably know what the reasoning behind the law is, so why ask him? Look up the rulings instead, and tell why you disagree. The law relates to a woman’s right to privacy. It does not address the man’s obligations when he has sex. That it is why it is irrelevant if the woman has a choice afterwards. > [@DtC](#): > > I have made no statements whatsoever about the law. All I’m doing is explaining how biology dictates respective obligations. Biology does not dictate obligations, especially in this case. If it did then the woman would be obligated to have the child. And it does not address the man’s obligations whatsoever. Only the laws do. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/123 "2005-10-10T06:04:11Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > The law relates to a woman’s right to privacy. It does not address the man’s obligations when he has sex. That it is why it is irrelevant if the woman has a choice afterwards. Ahem. The reasoning behind abortion laws, child support, etc., I should have said. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/124 "2005-10-10T06:08:35Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Nonsense. It only says that the man has no responsibility for children that were carried to term over his objections - children that only the woman wanted. In other words, the only men that don’t have to take responsibility are the ones who don’t _want_ to take responsibility. Which is exactly the same as simply saying that men don’t have to take responsibility. > [@](#): > > It has been repeatedly pointed out to you how the opportunities are not equal. One party has two opportunities, the other only has one. We could easily change the law to grant both people equal opportunities to opt out of _legally_ being parents, without interfering with anyone’s bodily autonomy. The opportunities are the same, they just have different _terminus ad quems_ at which they have to exercise their options. The moment of sex is not an extra choice for the woman any more than driving to the date is an extra choice for the man. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/125 "2005-10-10T06:08:56Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Ahem. The reasoning behind abortion laws, child support, etc., I should have said. I think we are debating the “child support, etc.,”. Abortion laws only give the backbone to **DtC’s** copout. He says its biology, but I am sure no one believes that canard but him. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/126 "2005-10-10T06:10:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The opportunities are the same, they just have different _terminus ad quems_ at which they have to exercise their options. The moment of sex is not an extra choice for the woman any more than driving to the date is an extra choice for the man. So the woman does not have a choice to have sex or not? Not how I was raised. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/127 "2005-10-10T06:13:17Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > So the woman does not have a choice to have sex or not? Not how I was raised. :dubious: A woman’s choice to have sex is not the point at when she has to choose whether or not she’s willing to become a parent. That’s the part some of you seem to be completely missing. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/128 "2005-10-10T06:13:50Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > I think we are debating the “child support, etc.,”. Abortion laws only give the backbone to **DtC’s** copout. He says its biology, but I am sure no one believes that canard but him. !. If it is true that we are debating child support, then were does privacy come in, in your reply to me. Oh, and why the snottyness about DTC’s statement? (Which, last time I looked, was hardly a copout.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Rio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Mr.Rio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Rio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/129 "2005-10-10T06:14:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In other words, the only men that don’t have to take responsibility are the ones who don’t _want_ to take responsibility. Which is exactly the same as simply saying that men don’t have to take responsibility. > > The opportunities are the same, they just have different _terminus ad quems_ at which they have to exercise their options. The moment of sex is not an extra choice for the woman any more than driving to the date is an extra choice for the man. Driving to a date does not cause a conception. Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman does. And why are you speaking Spanish? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/130 "2005-10-10T06:15:06Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > I think we are debating the “child support, etc.,”. Abortion laws only give the backbone to **DtC’s** copout. He says its biology, but I am sure no one believes that canard but him. I’ve said nothing whatsoever about abortion laws. I’m only explaining why biology dictates obligations. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/131 "2005-10-10T06:16:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A woman’s choice to have sex is not the point at when she has to choose whether or not she’s willing to become a parent. That’s the part some of you seem to be completely missing. My god, this is tiresome. The only reason a man has to choose at that point and a woman doesn’t is because of the way the law is currently written. I’m pretty sure you know laws can be changed, so I don’t know why you keep sticking with this dishonest argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Rio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Mr.Rio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Rio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/132 "2005-10-10T06:17:04Z")
> [@Mr. Rio](#): > > Driving to a date does not cause a conception. Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman does. And why are you speaking Spanish? Anyway, it’s clear we won’t agree on this point. Time for bed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/133 "2005-10-10T06:20:06Z")
> [@Mr. Rio](#): > > Driving to a date does not cause a conception. Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman does. And why are you speaking Spanish? It was Latin. For a woman, conception is not the endpoint for when she has to make a decision about whether she’s willing to become a parent. Unlike the man, she doesn’t have to make a decision before conception because it’s her body. The moment of conception is only binding on the man. It binds the woman to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/134 "2005-10-10T06:27:01Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > The only reason a man has to choose at that point and a woman doesn’t is because of the way the law is currently written. Cite? Can the man decide two hours later? Two hours before? WTF are you trying to say? (Though I think I have a prety good idea of what you will say. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/135 "2005-10-10T06:29:20Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > My god, this is tiresome. The only reason a man has to choose at that point and a woman doesn’t is because of the way the law is currently written. I’m pretty sure you know laws can be changed, so I don’t know why you keep sticking with this dishonest argument. What am I saying that’s “dishonest?” What laws are you even referring to? How would changing the laws change the biological factors involved? Are you only talking about abortin? Are you saying that the choice only comes later for the woman because abortion is legal? Well, if that’s the case, so what? If abortion is made illegal then any discussion about a woman making the “choice” to carry a pregnancy goes right out the window anyway. Are you saying that all women should be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies AND the fathers should never have to take responsibilty? ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/136 "2005-10-10T06:34:08Z")
Sooooooooo, she can just _“terminate the pregnancy”_? You seem to think that these procedures are akin to douching. Induced Abortion procedures can carry potent psychological and clinical implications. It’s not like getting your teeth cleaned. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/137 "2005-10-10T06:39:58Z")
Cite? Give yourself enough rope, rather. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/138 "2005-10-10T06:47:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What am I saying that’s “dishonest?” What laws are you even referring to? How would changing the laws change the biological factors involved? Are you only talking about abortin? Are you saying that the choice only comes later for the woman because abortion is legal? To be clear, I’m talking about the choice to accept legal responsibility for a child. That choice comes later for the woman (or rather, she gets two chances to make the choice) because abortion and giving the child up for adoption are legal, and opting out as a male is not legal. What’s dishonest is ignoring the fact that women only have more choices (or a later choice, if you want to call it that) because of the state of the law. If you argue that men should have to support unwanted children because they made their choice when they had sex, you’re trying to use the law to justify itself. Before abortion was legal, women had exactly the same choice as men do now: either abstain from sex or take the risk of becoming a parent. If the law were changed to remove men’s obligation to support children they didn’t want, they would again have the same choice. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that all women should be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies AND the fathers should never have to take responsibilty? Of course not. As I said earlier, no one should have to give up control over their body… but neither should they have to give up their income for decades to pay for a child someone else wanted. > [@cerberus](#): > > Sooooooooo, she can just “terminate the pregnancy”? You seem to think that these procedures are akin to douching. Induced Abortion procedures can carry potent psychological and clinical implications. Giving birth has some pretty serious implications too, and so does giving up a big chunk of your income for the next 18 years. No one gets off easy. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/139 "2005-10-10T10:47:13Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Such as the fact it is her body? :dubious: Get serious. Oh! Now I get it. You’ve convinced me. > [@](#): > > Well, then can always choose to wear a condom, or not have sex. Apparently, however, you claim this is not an option. I am at a loss as to why you believe that is so, in spite of all the past posters questioning you. Now, you have asserted that it, or something like it is **the truth**. Please elaborate. I have elaborated extensively, to the point where I believe it’s quite clear that I do not assert that men don’t have the option of not having sex or of wearing a condom. So you’ll excuse me for not taking the side of an argument you’ve fabricated for me. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247/140 "2005-10-10T10:55:05Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > One more thing, I think that your implication that abortion for women is motivated solely by a desire to avoid a financial obligations shows an overly simplistic and unsympathetic understanding of the reasons that women terminate pregnancies. There’s a hell of a lot more to it than money. God, this is wearisome. Once again, I feel no compulsion to defend a position I did not take. I did not assert or imply that the sole reason for abortion was to avoid a financial burden. I asserted that it was _a_ reason. And I’d respond to your prior clarification, if I found it clarified anything. Maybe it’s me, but we’re just running around and around the same track here. You accept something as a given that I do not, and I can’t locate your rationale for it (to the exclusion of an alternative), other than, that’s how it should be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-in-certain-abortion-cases/325247.md?page=8)