# Men's Rights Movement may have a big future. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049 "2013-04-07T01:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/201 "2013-04-10T18:52:36Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Isn’t the free market of ideas subverted when you lie all the time? It’s hard for your ideas to succeed in the free marketplace when nobody is buying bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/202 "2013-04-10T18:54:47Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > My money is on this group also thinking Christians are oppressed in society. Color me unsurprised. No, it’s an obscure but apparently legitimate source. [Here’s a link](http://www.hipatiapress.info/hpjournals/index.php/mcs/article/view/388). The abstract: > [@](#): > > We surveyed Americans regarding their beliefs about gender discrimination over the past several decades. Men and women agreed that women faced much more discrimination than men in the past, and they agreed that the discrimination gap between men and women has narrowed in recent years. However, men perceived the gap as narrower than women did at all time periods, and reported that there is little difference today in the amount of gender discrimination women and men face. Political ideology moderated these beliefs such that conservative men were most likely to report that anti-Man bias now equals or exceeds anti-Woman bias. Similar to recent research on beliefs about racism, these findings suggest that groups which differ historically in status and power exhibit perceptual differences regarding the changing nature of discrimination. The paper doesn’t seem to say what the OP thinks it says. [The primary author](http://psychology.usf.edu/faculty/jbosson/) is fairly young, not on a political crusade–and probably isn’t a Creationist. The topics of “self-esteem” and “precarious manhood” come up… Again, interacting with real people can be quite enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/203 "2013-04-10T18:57:56Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately, I have not experienced any of life’s misfortunes… > > Fortunately, my knowledge about life comes from reading… > > I am not alone in holding very unpopular opinions. My knowledge about life comes from reading and also living. I think, generally, the knowledge I have that comes from reading is less nuanced than the knowledge I have that comes from living. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, but generally more shallow. I think that’s to be expected, since reading is just taking in what someone else has already processed. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/204 "2013-04-10T19:00:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > My knowledge about life comes from reading and also living. I think, generally, the knowledge I have that comes from reading is less nuanced than the knowledge I have that comes from living. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, but generally more shallow. I think that’s to be expected, since reading is just taking in what someone else has already processed. Fortunately I have been sheltered from life and its misfortunes… ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/205 "2013-04-10T19:00:34Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > No, it’s an obscure but apparently legitimate source. [Here’s a link](http://www.hipatiapress.info/hpjournals/index.php/mcs/article/view/388). The abstract: > > The paper doesn’t seem to say what the OP thinks it says. [The primary author](http://psychology.usf.edu/faculty/jbosson/) is fairly young, not on a political crusade–and probably isn’t a Creationist. The topics of “self-esteem” and “precarious manhood” come up… > > Again, interacting with real people can be quite enlightening. That’s not what I meant. I meant the people in the study, the 25% of conservative men who believe they are discriminated against more than women are also likely to be a group of people who feel that christians and whites are discriminated against in this country as well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/206 "2013-04-10T19:01:57Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > My money is on this group also thinking Christians are oppressed in society. Color me unsurprised. White conservative men are more likely to think Christians are oppressed, that Obama had an advantage because he was black, and that they are more discriminated against than women. I think the line from the abstract captures all of this: “Similar to recent research on beliefs about racism, these findings suggest that groups which differ historically in status and power exhibit perceptual differences regarding the changing nature of discrimination.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/207 "2013-04-10T19:02:13Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately I have been sheltered from life and its misfortunes… What’s with the occasional redded wordage? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/208 "2013-04-10T19:04:51Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately I have been sheltered from life and its misfortunes… Sheltered? You don’t say? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/209 "2013-04-10T19:05:01Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately, I have not experienced any of life’s misfortunes… > > Fortunately, my knowledge about life comes from reading… > > I am not alone in holding very unpopular opinions. My suggestion is to _experience_ more before holding forth about things you only know second hand if you wish to be taken seriously. Or do a search for previous discussions. Or frame the question in such a way as to not pretend to be an expert, a victim, or an actual complainant. “Does the Men’s Rights Movement address any legitimate legal or social issues?” “Does the MRM help or harm the cause of equality?” “Do any issues advanced by the MRM serve to damage the credibility of the group?” It’s unfortunate that MRAs without an actual legal complaint tend to bark the loudest at women, when their oppressors are just as likely to be other men. It’s unfortunate that the trivial complaints about who makes the first move in dating and relationships, who holds the keys to sex, and complaints about the perceived “power” attractive women have over men eclipse the legitimate social and legal issues which divide the sexes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/210 "2013-04-10T19:05:26Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately I have been sheltered from life and its misfortunes… Well, it’s good that you haven’t suffered too much. Suffering a little is probably good for you and helps you have empathy for others. Suffering too much is just suffering. I didn’t have any suffering in my life (oh, when I was a teen, I had what I called suffering, but that’s not the same) until I was in my mid-20s. It was a shocking revelation to discover just how sheltered I had been. I’m still incredibly fortunate, though. I have had a lucky life. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/211 "2013-04-10T19:09:07Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Sheltered? You don’t say? Unfortunately, he did… ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/212 "2013-04-10T19:13:41Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > “Does the Men’s Rights Movement address any legitimate legal or social issues?” “Does the MRM help or harm the cause of equality?” “Do any issues advanced by the MRM serve to damage the credibility of the group?” Each side will continue holding their beliefs. But at least I will not bother this board with the ideas the vast majority here finds offensive… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/213 "2013-04-10T19:15:50Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > That’s not what I meant. I meant the people in the study, the 25% of conservative men who believe they are discriminated against more than women are also likely to be a group of people who feel that christians and whites are discriminated against in this country as well. Sorry, I was just trying to see how the paper supported our OP. It really doesn’t–it just points out that various subsets of human beings tend to believe certain things. The author got her Masters & PhD at UT Austin & would probably be considered one of those evil Liberals. Here are comments attached to [another paper](http://masculineheart.blogspot.com/2011/05/psychologists-show-how-precarious.html): > [@](#): > > Who judges manhood so stringently? “Women are not the main punishers of gender role violations,” says Bosson. Other men are. > > Bosson says that this area of research gives psychological evidence to sociological and political theories calling gender a social, not a biological, phenomenon. And it begins to demonstrate the negative effects of gender on men—depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, or violence. > > The work has also changed Bosson personally. “When I was younger I felt annoyed by my male friends who would refuse to hold a pocketbook or say whether they thought another man was attractive. I thought it was a personal shortcoming that they were so anxious about their manhood. Now I feel much more sympathy for men.” Sympathy for men, yes. “Men’s Rights Movement”–not so much… ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/214 "2013-04-10T19:16:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well, it’s good that you haven’t suffered too much. Suffering a little is probably good for you and helps you have empathy for others. Suffering too much is just suffering. Thanks. I did/do experience depression. But fortunately, nothing horrible happened to me. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/215 "2013-04-10T19:22:26Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Sorry, I was just trying to see how the paper supported our OP. It really doesn’t–it just points out that various subsets of human beings tend to believe certain things. The author got her Masters & PhD at UT Austin & would probably be considered one of those evil Liberals. Here are comments attached to [another paper](http://masculineheart.blogspot.com/2011/05/psychologists-show-how-precarious.html): > > Sympathy for men, yes. “Men’s Rights Movement”–not so much… It’s cool, I realize my wording was a little ambiguous. But yeah, if the threshold of a movement’s legitimacy is only “I found some other people who agree with me, kind of”, that’s really saying something. Especially when you call it “feminist research” as though that means anything. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/216 "2013-04-10T19:35:01Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Thanks. I did/do experience depression. > > But fortunately, nothing horrible happened to me. What draws you to the Men’s Rights Movement? I think most of us have events or experiences or just witness particular things that make us aware of an injustice. For example, I came to realize the huge problems in health care in the US when I married someone disabled. Before then, I never really thought about it. I don’t think most people get fired up about something until they witness it or experience it personally (though there are certainly exceptions). What inspired you? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/217 "2013-04-10T19:38:40Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Each side will continue holding their beliefs. But at least I will not bother this board with the ideas the vast majority here finds offensive… It’s not offensive. The MRM gives voice to _some_ legitimate complaints about custody and child support issues. The problem is that the loudest voices of the MRM are often complaining about supporting children they willingly fathered and making trivial demands that women make the first move in dating, that women dispense sex upon request, or that women give up control of their reproductive rights. The other social issues such as stereotypical gender roles, unequal representation on dating services, or sensitive men who suffer under the hero archtype, don’t require a “movement” to reconcile. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/218 "2013-04-10T19:43:55Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Thanks. I did/do experience depression. > > But fortunately, nothing horrible happened to me. From the website hosting [the last paper I found](http://masculineheart.blogspot.com/2011/05/psychologists-show-how-precarious.html): > [@](#): > > The _Association for Psychological Science (Current Directions in Psychological Science)_ has released a new study that looks at the challenges of being a man, or more relevant, the challenges of being a “macho” or “manly” man. It points to the social nature of manhood for most men - _i.e.,_ feeling manly is a state bestowed by others and how they see a man, and as they give, so can they take away. > > Unfortunately, when men feel their manhood is at stake, they are more likely to act in aggressive and violent ways to regain their status. When the status is revoked, men are prone to the negative effects of gender nonconformity—depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, or violence. > > Imagine how different it might be if our sense of self and our sense of masculinity were determined internally (internal locus of control) rather than by others (external locus of control). Clearly, it’s not easy to get to this place in our lives (coaching or therapy helps), but more and more men are doing so and more men are seeking ways to become more internally focused in their identity. Consider looking within, rather than directing your hostility outwards… ---
**Author:** ![Rollo\_Tomasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Rollo\_Tomasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rollo_Tomasi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/219 "2013-04-10T20:22:11Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > [COLOR=“Red”]I am not alone in holding very unpopular opinions. “The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” –Carl Sagan (although he was a dirty liberal, so what did he know, right?) ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/220 "2013-04-10T20:32:37Z")
> [@Rollo\_Tomasi](#): > > “The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” > > –Carl Sagan I know I am not a genius. But when I express unpopular libertarian opinions on a conservative forum, at least I am treated civilly. Many liberals believe that expressing opinions unpopular with them is a moral crime. And in many countries there are strict speech laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049.md?page=12)