# Men's Rights Movement may have a big future. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049 "2013-04-07T01:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/361 "2013-04-25T18:04:13Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Some people on another board claimed that the Brian Banks story on “60 Minutes” was timed to drum up sympathy for the boys in the Steubenville rape case. I got pilloried for disagreeing! Even when I pointed out to one of the most vocal people that being incarcerated for a crime you did not commit ranks up there with the death of a child on the list of “Things Nobody Deserves To Experience”, they still didn’t back down. That’s too bad. people on the Internet are often assholes. > [@](#): > > And in this case, it appears that no rape even happened at all! :mad: Just because a woman makes an accusation against a man does not automatically mean that it is true. Just because an accusation is made _for any crime_ doesn’t mean that it’s true. People lie sometimes. Not _women_, **people**. Women are not perfect. Sometimes women do awful things, like accuse a man of rape in order to get a payout. No one denies this. It doesn’t mean rape never happens though, or that all (or most) accusations are false. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/362 "2013-04-25T20:27:36Z")
I used to believe in the whole “guilty until proven innocent” thing WRT sex crimes, until someone pointed out, “Until it happens to your son, brother, father, husband, etc.” True, and women can be sex offenders too. Another anecdote: When I was in college, I worked with a woman who also worked at a group home for teenage boys who had been in various kinds of trouble. The one thing ALL of them had in common was a history of sexual abuse (she had never encountered one who didn’t) and the most common perpetrator was a teenage female babysitter! :eek: She said that if she ever had kids, she would NEVER hire a teenage girl to look after them, and also said that she was less worried about her daughters being molested than her sons. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/363 "2013-04-25T20:34:12Z")
One time I knew a guy who insisted he was abducted by aliens and asked to go back to Mars to lead them-- this all happened while he was drinking a bunch and fishing by a lake. Needless to say, I’ll never be drinking by a lake! Boy howdy. No, but seriously, if you’re going to keep making these outrageous claims, provide some actual sources, please. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/364 "2013-04-25T20:35:42Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I used to believe in the whole “guilty until proven innocent” thing WRT sex crimes, until someone pointed out, “Until it happens to your son, brother, father, husband, etc.” True, and women can be sex offenders too. Good thing your son, brother, father or husband aren’t capable of being sex offenders. And that the justice system still considers them innocent until proven guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Rollo\_Tomasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Rollo\_Tomasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rollo_Tomasi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/365 "2013-04-25T20:55:44Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > [Criminal charges](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-brian-banks-20130412,0,3492944.story) yet to be laid against Brian Banks false rape accuser. He spent five years in jail for it. So just to be clear, every time that you post about something bad that happened to a man at the hands of a woman, should someone else be posting a link to something bad that happened to a woman at the hands of a man? Because a) it would be incredibly easy, b) it would grow tiresome very quickly, and c) posting single news links means exactly jack in the grand societal scheme of things, regardless of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/366 "2013-04-25T21:59:38Z")
> [@Rollo\_Tomasi](#): > > So just to be clear, every time that you post about something bad that happened to a man at the hands of a woman, should someone else be posting a link to something bad that happened to a woman at the hands of a man? Because a) it would be incredibly easy, b) it would grow tiresome very quickly, and c) posting single news links means exactly jack in the grand societal scheme of things, regardless of gender. If you can find a comparable case where a man is clearly guilty of a false accusation that lands an innocent woman in jail for five years, and criminal charges are not laid against him. Feel free to post it. It’s been well over a year now, and still no charges. When it comes to the justice system men and women are treated differently. e.g. I would hazard a guess if this [teacher](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2013/04/24/sk-teacher-sentenced-for-sexual-exploitation-1304.html) was a man abusing a 15yr old girl he’d be doing some time. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/367 "2013-04-25T22:47:50Z")
> **[Female special ed teacher arrested for having sex with student, 15 ](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/female-special-ed-teacher-arrested-sex-student-15-article-1.1327294)** > > A married special education teacher was arrested Thursday after admitting she had sex in her car with a 15-year-old student, investigators said. > **[High School Teacher Accused Of Rape](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/courtney-jarrell-utah-teacher-rape_n_3139562)** > > High School Teacher Accused Of Rape > **[Canarsie High School Teacher Arrested for Affair With 15-Year-Old Student](https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20130425/canarsie/canarsie-high-school-teacher-arrested-for-affair-with-15-year-old-student/)** > > Evelyn R. Rogers carried on a year-long affair with a male student, the schools investigator said. Yah totally! ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/368 "2013-04-25T22:55:26Z")
But on a more serious note, what is your point exactly? Yes, men and women are treated differently by the justice system. Are you angry that men are oppressing men in that regard? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/369 "2013-04-26T06:47:08Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > But on a more serious note, what is your point exactly? Yes, men and women are treated differently by the justice system. Are you angry that men are oppressing men in that regard? 1. Yes, because all western nations explicitly forbid women to become judges, or lawyers, or prosecutors, or jurors, of legislators, or lobbyists, or voters. 2. And therefore its… fine? I mean, oppression only counts if it’s by the opposite sex, right? Lynchings were just men giving each other necklaces, yes? And when a judge, who will obviously and inevitably be male, gives a longer sentence to a man than he would to a woman, literally the only relevant fact is that they’re both men so it’s fine. Lile how female genital mutilation is fine, because it’s almost always women holding the scalpel, or improvised stone blade. Because men, you see, are just one big homogenous block. [Here](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002) is a study showing that women get much shorter sentences for the same crime, incidentally. Not that it matters, of course, with the Bar Council’s official slogan having recently been changed to “bros before hos” and all. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/370 "2013-04-26T18:15:31Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > 1. Yes, because all western nations explicitly forbid women to become judges, or lawyers, or prosecutors, or jurors, of legislators, or lobbyists, or voters. > > 2. And therefore its… fine? I mean, oppression only counts if it’s by the opposite sex, right? Lynchings were just men giving each other necklaces, yes? And when a judge, who will obviously and inevitably be male, gives a longer sentence to a man than he would to a woman, literally the only relevant fact is that they’re both men so it’s fine. Lile how female genital mutilation is fine, because it’s almost always women holding the scalpel, or improvised stone blade. Because men, you see, are just one big homogenous block. > > [Here](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002) is a study showing that women get much shorter sentences for the same crime, incidentally. Not that it matters, of course, with the Bar Council’s official slogan having recently been changed to “bros before hos” and all. So, hold on. Is your thesis 1. Powerful women in the judiciary have, unopposed by their male cohort who decisively outnumbers them, twisted the justice system so that accused men are disfavored. OR 1. No, of course it’s not mostly women behind this injustice but it is wrong and we should do our best to bring awareness to issues when they emerge? I don’t think most people here would disagree with thesis 2. However, the fact that the typical **blindboyard** SDMB post espouses a burning desire for women’s status in society to be brought _lower_ so that it can again be equal to that of the purportedly beleaguered modern man kind of tends to make me think that the point you are trying to make in this thread is much closer to thesis 1. If 2 is what you really mean to get across, then might I suggest dialing back the outrage and contempt you commonly direct at feminists and women in general? After all, they really aren’t the ones responsible for the “better go easy on the ladies” cultural gestalt. That one is much older than feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/371 "2013-04-27T01:12:01Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > I think the best way to describe it is to say that while the sweetest gig in the world is likely held by a man, the shittiest gig in the world is probably help by a man too. This would be an interesting debate all by itself, I think… my first reaction is that the worst gig in the world is absolutely held by a woman, no question, but then I realized that the same might also be true of the best. Obviously very subjective on all counts, but still the arguments could certainly be made… > [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > And, by the way, just because the UN labels a need as a right doesn’t make it so. It doesn’t fit the definition. If the glove doesn’t fit… I agree with that. I think we’d do better to strip the idea of human rights down to the most basic: we all have a right to be free from slavery, torture, rape, and murder. End. Everything else is stuff that is culturally agreed upon, but those things should be guaranteed to all human beings. > [@CCitizen](#): > > But on this liberal board I got just lots of ad homenim attacks which drain my mental energy. Thus posting it here was my mistake. No, your mistake was _ **focusing** _ on the _ad hominem_ attacks. The only thing you have control over or responsibility for is yourself and your own behavior. If some people choose to make it about you instead of about your arguments, that is their choice and you have no obligation to respond to it. If you withdraw from responding to anyone/everyone because of the way only some people are responding to you, well, that does not speak well for your convictions or your ability to defend your beliefs and ideas. > [@Troppus](#): > > Instead of taking this personally, why not investigate the criticism of the MRM? Exactly. > [@CCitizen](#): > > I guess I am not welcome at a liberal forum – should have been banned outright. > [@CCitizen](#): > > The beauty of American democracy is that no one has to explain why they have a particular political position. > > In any case my presence on this thread seems to be counterproductive. See, this reads as you grabbing a slim straw of some people’s rudeness and spinning it into finding it impossible to discuss your ideas here due to some larger bias against you. That is false. Don’t be afraid to be challenged, that’s the best way in the world to strengthen your beliefs, or refine them, or perhaps abandon them - and as someone who has admittedly little experience of the world, you must be open to any of those things happening if you wish to continue to learn and grow. > [@blindboyard](#): > > I’d be much happier being objectified for my looks than my wealth. I mean, my looks are part of me. My filthy lucre, should I ever acquire any, is nothing. Really? Looks are a genetic accident over which you have no power. If your money comes from your own efforts, that’s at least something in which you can take pride as your own. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/372 "2013-04-27T05:42:00Z")
> [@colander](#): > > So, hold on. Is your thesis > > 1. Powerful women in the judiciary have, unopposed by their male cohort who decisively outnumbers them, twisted the justice system so that accused men are disfavored. > > OR > > 1. No, of course it’s not mostly women behind this injustice but it is wrong and we should do our best to bring awareness to issues when they emerge? I see no difference between female and male judges. Back in the early twentieth century there was even a movement in America to get women on juries, because men were too likely to go easy on female criminals, which wasn’t entirely successful, but still. You know, it doesn’t matter who perpetrates injustice, only that it’s injustice and should be opposed. > [@](#): > > I don’t think most people here would disagree with thesis 2. However, the fact that the typical **blindboyard** SDMB post espouses a burning desire for women’s status in society to be brought _lower_ so that it can again be equal to that of the purportedly beleaguered modern man kind of tends to make me think that the point you are trying to make in this thread is much closer to thesis 1. In this case I would like men to be treated like women, with better presumption of innocence and lighter sentences. I’m a leveller. > [@](#): > > If 2 is what you really mean to get across, then might I suggest dialing back the outrage and contempt you commonly direct at feminists and women in general? After all, they really aren’t the ones responsible for the “better go easy on the ladies” cultural gestalt. That one is much older than feminism. Yet feminism claims to oppose these gender norms and be for equality, and has been around for a very long time. Yet it jumps on board all these injustices. I’ve got not outrage and contempt for women, most of the leading anti-feminists seem to be women, but feminists are outrageous and deserve contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/373 "2013-04-27T08:22:08Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > …Yet feminism claims to oppose these gender norms and be for equality, and has been around for a very long time. Yet it jumps on board all these injustices. I’ve got not outrage and contempt for women, most of the leading anti-feminists seem to be women, but feminists are outrageous and deserve contempt. In a nutshell… ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/374 "2013-04-27T14:50:40Z")
I think we can all agree that Men’s Rights groups will never gain any social traction until they kick people like **blindboyard** out of the clubhouse. ---
**Author:** ![\_3Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b9e5f3/32.png) [@\_3Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_3Bill)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/375 "2013-04-29T10:14:33Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Nope, you are wrong. A right, by definition, applies equally to everyone. . . . This is not the case. First of all, there are status rights, for example, that come with adulthood. Suffrage, for example, which you mention below. > [@](#): > > A right cannot be bought, sold or transferred to another - you can’t legally assign your right to vote to someone else, you cannot sign over your right to life to another, nor assign your liberty. Neither can you buy more of them. . . . Actually, most rights are alienable. I recently sold a right of way on my land. the copyright to John Clare’s poetry is owned by some English professor. Rights are guaranteed in treaties and in contracts, where they are bought and sold. The class isn’t nearly as narrow as you construe it. > [@](#): > > I can legally sign over my health care needs to another, I can give away my clothes, food and shelter for someone else to use. I can buy as much of any of them as I can afford. Those are needs. . . . I would gladly transfer to you my need to have my right back molar drilled and filled. How shall I go about doing this? > [@](#): > > A right does not depend on the actions of another. A right obtained by one from another may well specify actions of a third party or infringe on that one’s rights. For example, by conferring liberty on all, the 14th Amendment prescribed manumission on the part of slaveowners and, as they complained, deprived them of their property and curtailed their pursuit of happiness. To deprive another, for example one’s child, of rights by act or negligence is actionable. It is absurd to treat needs and rights as somehow mutually exclusive. People need liberty. They need to have a voice in their own government. They have a right to and a need for privacy. They have a right and a need to be secure in their persons. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/376 "2013-04-29T13:52:09Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > You consistently seem not to know what you’re talking about. Children are still subject to corporal punishment in private schools in my country, in several American states and in many countries elsewhere in the world. And in those places it is extremely biassed in favour of the beating of boys. It’s also still a criminal penalty in some places, like Singapore, but generally only for men. You say you’re in the UK? Corporal punishment has been banned in all schools, including private ones, everywhere in the UK since 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/377 "2013-05-01T01:05:45Z")
[Jailed for Nonpayment of Child Support - But it’s Not His Child](http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/03/25/jailed-for-nonpayment-of-child-support--but-its-not-his-child-n1548325/page/full/) Pretty dehumanizing for men. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/378 "2013-05-01T01:50:32Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > [Jailed for Nonpayment of Child Support - But it’s Not His Child](http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/03/25/jailed-for-nonpayment-of-child-support--but-its-not-his-child-n1548325/page/full/) > > Pretty dehumanizing for men. No it’s not. This bloke was asked to pay $3000 a month in child support and didn’t, that’s why he went to jail and he says because he doesn’t get paid enough. Nup smells like he is trying to skip out on payments. The issue of paternity could have been resolved when his partner allegedly told him that the child wasn’t his but he waited until he was jailed. One thing to consider in this debate is the rights of the father, if you bring up a child to the age of 10 and then divorce what is to stop the mother turning around and saying no visitation for you as it’s not your child? This would be the unintended consequence worth considering. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/379 "2013-05-01T13:15:04Z")
So putting aside my surprise this is still going…seven pages later; … I am reminded of the (paraphrased) comments in Evan Maloney’s “Indoctrinate U” documentary. There’s a point where he visits the ‘women’s studies’ department of a college campus and asks ‘Where is the men’s studies?’ to which he is laughed at and told no such thing exists. Just sayin… ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049/380 "2013-05-01T13:28:41Z")
Do you really need to be told that the study of history _is_ men’s studies? Until you open a standard history textbook and see 500 pages on what women were doing for the past 2000 years, and men only get a token sidebar paragraph once per chapter, you don’t have anything to fret about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mens-rights-movement-may-have-a-big-future/655049.md?page=20)