# Mental health hold on Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 27, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461 "2019-12-27T18:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/21 "2019-12-28T02:21:48Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > He is not non-functioning at all AFAICS. He’s a 73 year old out on the campaign trail. He is unstable though and getting worse. Non functioning to me is: they won’t let him out of his room. You know they have already had these thoughts. It has worked out so far but one day it won’t. I meant exactly that. He’s non-functioning _as president_. Yeah, of course he’s always campaigning. That’s all he wants to do, because he knows that at the rallies all there will be are idiots who are in his cult. He can put on his bullshit-spewing act and they’ll lap up his bullshit blindly. As to actually making the country run better, I doubt he contributes anything at all toward that. In that sense, he’s a “co-worker” who’s non-functioning. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/22 "2019-12-28T02:48:43Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I meant exactly that. He’s non-functioning _as president_. Yeah, of course he’s always campaigning. That’s all he wants to do, because he knows that at the rallies all there will be are idiots who are in his cult. He can put on his bullshit-spewing act and they’ll lap up his bullshit blindly. > > As to actually making the country run better, I doubt he contributes anything at all toward that. In that sense, he’s a “co-worker” who’s non-functioning. But these holds aren’t for presidents, they are for people generally. And not about job competence really. That wouldn’t be my bar for it anyway. (I’ve been a public employee. I’ve had nonfunctioning coworkers) You have to be irrational and/or present some momentary danger, on film and in front of a mixed audience probably. What if he waved a baby over a balcony? I’m not complacent about his strength and skills on the trail right now. I’m impressed. But he’s down the road so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/23 "2019-12-28T02:54:14Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > “As a coworker, she has the right to have him submit to an involuntary evaluation, but she has not,” Lee told Salon. "Anyone can call 911 to report someone who seems dangerous, and family members are the most typical ones to do so. But so can coworkers, and even passersby on the street. The law dictates who can determine right to treatment, or civil commitment, and in all 50 U.S. states this includes a psychiatrist. > From the article. I wonder what happens when this occurs. > > So it’s not going to happenever? OK, I still wonder what happens when this occurs. > > tornp is very unstable. It’s easy to be confident about theoreticals. What about the real situatuon we are in? > > What percentage of the way do you think he has gone towards “batshit unpresentable”, so far? > > If that happens 25 will come up. My wife works in public mental health in Texas. I assume most states are similar or better, since Texas has abysmal mental health care (and health care in general). If a person encounters another person who appears to need assistance, he calls 911. A police officer or sheriff’s deputy responds to the scene. If the 911 operator can determine that this is a mental health situation, he/she may try to send an officer trained in mental health issues. If the subject is determine to be a danger to himself or others, the officer will transport him to the local emergency room or jail. At that time, someone like my wife (a case manager) will be called. Think of the old ER TV show when someone is being held on a “psych consult”. That’s my wife (or used to be – she doesn’t do that much any more). The crisis manager will arrive and assess the subject using a rubric that he/she has and is trained in how to use. The subject must be medically stable (as in, not injured or requiring medical assistance). If the crisis manager determines that the subject requires further mental health assistance, he/she will present the information to a justice of the peace. The JP will then issue the order to involuntarily commit the subject. The subject will then be transported by a local LEO to the closest state hospital that has an available bed. It may take many hours to find a facility with an available space. The most high-profile person my wife has ever worked with was the subject of an animal hoarders show on Animal Planet. While the cameras and officers were out rescuing the animals, the hoarder was in my wife’s office being evaluated. That’s a pretty far cry from POTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/24 "2019-12-28T03:09:26Z")
I don’t like Trump as a person. I feel he’s not very smart and has a lot of personality problems. I feel he’s an incompetent President. And I think he’s committed several serious crimes. But I don’t feel he is physically or mentally incapacitated. Congress should not be seeking to invoke the 25th Amendment. Let’s remove Trump from office through legal means. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/25 "2019-12-28T03:48:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t like Trump as a person. I feel he’s not very smart and has a lot of personality problems. I feel he’s an incompetent President. And I think he’s committed several serious crimes. > > But I don’t feel he is physically or mentally incapacitated. Congress should not be seeking to invoke the 25th Amendment. > > Let’s remove Trump from office through legal means. This situation is a rolling doughnut. But it sounds like you think of it as static. In what way can one assume he will continue to be “stable enough” through time? I can’t assume it. The problem is it will be a self fulfilling prophecy if enough dems think the outcomes of all these things are foregone. Have you ever read Timothy Snyder? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/26 "2019-12-28T03:49:59Z")
Personally, I think mental health’s hold on Trump is slipping. 😃 That said, the Constitution provides a remedy. The Veep and the Cabinet can initiate a review, if they think the President is incapacitated, and the Congress then judges. The idea that a mental health review under the local statute could be used to do a run-around the constitutional process designed for this precise situation is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/27 "2019-12-28T04:41:50Z")
Really, this is sovereign citizen-type thinking. Even if, under the appropriate interpretation, that is the law, it’s absolutely impossible to enforce, because the person charged with executing the law is the one for whom the law is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/28 "2019-12-28T04:49:59Z")
Pelosi: Trump, you need to submit to a psychiatric evaluation. I’m sending people over to examine your head now. Trump: No. …That’s the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/29 "2019-12-28T05:14:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Pelosi: Trump, you need to submit to a psychiatric evaluation. I’m sending people over to examine your head now. > > Trump: No. > > …That’s the end of it. The end of what? Just think about what you’re saying and imagine it being the end of something… The point of the article is that in terms of reality, the one we all inhabit, she is sounding a danger alarm, that needs to be in the public dialogue. She was trying to illustrate how dangerous terpn is, and how real it is for NP and for us all. Lets compare her words to the opinions of the posters here for instance. Here we all know how it ends before it happens, and we know she is right about his mind and psyche, but she should shut up because it wont make a difference to the reality we live in. Now, she is bringing the reality of a potus whose mind is deteriorating and who is hateful, into the public square. It is very ironiuc that on the internets of yak she will be lectured on the “reality” of the law by those who deny the reality of the danger… NP at the very least should be apprised of the article. It’s all about bringing sunshine where there was darkness. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/30 "2019-12-28T05:32:09Z")
I’m curious as to who you think is this hypothetical person who currently believes that Trump is a Very Stable Genius, who would be convinced otherwise by Nancy Pelosi saying someone should check on him. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/31 "2019-12-28T06:14:12Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Here we all know how it ends before it happens, and we know she is right about his mind and psyche, but she should shut up because it wont make a difference to the reality we live in. Hard disagree, she’s not right about his mind and psyche. Narcissism and grandiosity may well be dangerous in the powerful, and Trump may well be unfit, but the kind of holds discussed in that opinion piece apply to people who are imminently, creditably homicidal, suicidal or gravely disabled, Trump is not. I don’t know what he says in his bedroom, but I’m highly skeptical that Lee has special knowledge, if she did, she’d be ethically bound to make the call to emergency services herself. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/32 "2019-12-28T06:41:35Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Here Trump is the political dissident You’re claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/33 "2019-12-28T06:50:00Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > This situation is a rolling doughnut. But it sounds like you think of it as static. In what way can one assume he will continue to be “stable enough” through time? I can’t assume it. The problem is it will be a self fulfilling prophecy if enough dems think the outcomes of all these things are foregone. Have you ever read Timothy Snyder? It may be a rolling doughnut. I have no idea because I don’t know what that means. I feel that we should try to maintain the principle of having objective standards. We shouldn’t abandon that and decide that Trump’s insane if we can get enough legislators together to vote that he’s insane. And yes, I have read some of Snyder’s works. I think he can be myopic, which is a bad trait in a historian. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/34 "2019-12-28T06:59:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Pelosi: Trump, you need to submit to a psychiatric evaluation. I’m sending people over to examine your head now. > > Trump: No. > > …That’s the end of it. I’m assuming the plan would be to use the 25th Amendment. That says that Congress has the power to create a body to determine if the President is unable to perform the duties of his office. So Pelosi could propose a psychological review board and staff if with people who would be prone to issue a negative evaluation of Trump’s abilities. Of course, she’d have to convince a majority of both the House of Representatives and the Senate to vote for this proposal. I think there’s very little chance she’d get it through the House and no chance she’d get it through the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/35 "2019-12-28T09:13:39Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > You’re claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second. Of course. He’s a political dissident elected by the persecuted and disempowered white majority. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/36 "2019-12-28T10:15:21Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > You’re claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second. I don’t think he’s claiming that, I think he’s making an analogy. Trump isn’t crazy, claims that he is are just more straw grabbing. The democrats will have to do better than that to unseat him in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/37 "2019-12-28T11:27:36Z")
If congress decides to pursue the 25th Amendment approach, they could set up a body to evaluate the president’s fitness for the office. This, I assume, would be like any governmental agency - congress would have to write the laws defining its scope and arranging its funding and the president could (and certainly would) veto it. Assuming congress can override and get the Presidential Fitness Evaluation Board (PFEB) established, I assume it would investigatory and subpoena powers to question various executive branch employees and could invoke the 25th to turn the powers over the the vice-president. This could very quickly become abusive, I trust anyone can see (picture the Benghazi committee hearings, cubed), and if it gets set up for Trump, it’s absolutely certain something similar will be set up in future the next time the Democrats have the White House and the Republicans have congress. There won’t be any need to prove the president is mentally ill, just that he appears unable to perform the duties of the office for some reason. It’s nice to imagine this being used to boot Trump, but I predict it will have similar effect as the effortless filibuster - now congress can hamstring the president without having to go to the effort and political risk of the impeachment process. It’s too easy for them, and the worst among them will certainly abuse the opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/38 "2019-12-28T12:44:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m assuming the plan would be to use the 25th Amendment. That says that Congress has the power to create a body to determine if the President is unable to perform the duties of his office. Under the 25th, what can that body do if the VP says, _what’s that? Huh. No, he’s fine; did you have any other questions?_ ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/39 "2019-12-28T13:10:31Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I don’t think he’s claiming that, I think he’s making an analogy. > > Trump isn’t crazy, claims that he is are just more straw grabbing. The democrats will have to do better than that to unseat him in 2020. What Trump said about wind and cancer: "And they say the noise causes cancer. You tell me that one (makes whirring noise mimicking a turbine).” Well, if he’s not crazy, he’s one stupid motherfucker. Or he knows his supporters are. I’m going to vote both. Both in an election, and my opinion of this asshole. Perhaps his in-depth study of wind turbines made him crazy and stupid? Or he’s just the lying con-man that he has always been. It’s sad (to use Trump’s terminology) to see that his supporters can’t see what a ridiculous asshole he is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/40 "2019-12-28T13:49:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Under the 25th, what can that body do if the VP says, _what’s that? Huh. No, he’s fine; did you have any other questions?_ Well, calling the president unable to do the job is like calling him a pigfucker - it doesn’t matter if it’s true, the point is to make him deny it. And if the vice-president simply refuses to take the duty, I guess it passes to the Speaker. I assume the president will immediately object and if the vice-president doesn’t oppose, the president gets the office and powers back, but there will be a tiny window of opportunity… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461.md?page=3)