# Mental health hold on Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 27, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461 "2019-12-27T18:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/41 "2019-12-28T13:54:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, calling the president unable to do the job is like calling him a pigfucker - it doesn’t matter if it’s true, the point is to make him deny it. And if the vice-president simply refuses to take the duty, I guess it passes to the Speaker. You _guess_ it passes to the Speaker? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/42 "2019-12-28T14:00:38Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Pelosi is his coworker and he needs to be compos mentis in front of her to do the nations business. She is also his adversary and is in the business of removing him for unfitnes. She is where the rubber hits the road in this. It is in dealing with her that he will fail. It won’t be with republicans. They like his effluvia. It’s not only nonsense, it’s complete fucking nonsense. In one instance, Nancy Pelosi is not his co-worker in any real way. She’s a part of a separate branch of government. Occasionally, they may be required to interact but they only do so at their own discretion. Yes, I suppose someone on the street may make the case that he’s somehow clinically insane - narcissism doesn’t count or we’d lose 90% of congress and CEOs - and therefore a danger to those around him. Sure, but that’s provided for by the 25th Amendment. If Pence and a majority of the cabinet - or other body as Congress may appoint - alerts Pelosi and Grassley that they believe he’s incapacitated he can be temporarily removed and a process begins where it can be permanent. There are only four ways to remove a sitting president. Loss of Election Voluntary Resignation 25th Amendment, Section 4 Impeachment by the House and Removal by the Senate Anything else - ANYTHING ELSE - is fairytales and nonsense from someone who has either an ax to grind or column inches to fill. Learn this. Assume it into yourself. Because the sort of article you link? It doesn’t help. It’s the exact opposite of helping. It’s hysterical shrieking that agitates our opponents more than our own people. Want to remove Trump? Find your local Democratic Party office. Walk in. Volunteer. Donate money. Run for office yourself with the stated aim of returning dignity to elected office. But this? It’s just embarrassing for everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/43 "2019-12-28T14:07:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You _guess_ it passes to the Speaker? Yes, I’m _guessing_ how a hypothetical and unprecedented conflict between two of the three branches of the U.S. government will play out. It would certainly be amusing, I admit, if Pence showed hesitation and Pelosi instantly started calling herself the Acting President and issuing orders. Could Pence then demand to take the title and duties from her, if for some reason Trump himself was not able to do so? It’s potential constitutional-crisis territory. For an even bigger wrinkle, imagine that Trump imagines that if Pelosi becomes Acting President, however briefly, she’d have to resign as Speaker and he sees this as a brilliant 19-dimensional chess move on his part. Then Pelosi counters that the two occasions when Dick Cheney became Acting President, he didn’t resign the Vice-Presidency to do so, therefore she’s under no obligation to resign, either. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/44 "2019-12-28T14:11:57Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > There are only four ways to remove a sitting president. > > Loss of Election If one were to get nitpicky (forfend!), does that really constitute a “removal”? To me, it looks more like the sitting president’s contract was not renewed so he runs out the clock until his replacement shows up. If losing an election counts as a removal, than arguably a two-term president gets removed by term limits. This is not a hill I’m prepared to defend in any way whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/45 "2019-12-28T14:18:07Z")
Nor am I, really, because it’s just terms. I just wanted to list the ways that a President could STOP being President while remaining alive. I didn’t want to get grim. And, frankly, I really don’t like seeing death-wishes occur on the SDMB if it can be at all avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/46 "2019-12-28T14:19:31Z")
Here’s the relevant section of the 25th Amendment: > [@](#): > > Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. > > Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office. In other words: By default, the Vice President and the majority of the Cabinet have the power to find the President incompetent. Congress could, if they choose, create a different body for evaluating the President. I don’t think they have, but if they did (which would of course be impossible with the current makeup of Congress), then it’d be the Vice President and a majority of that body. Even if the Vice President and whichever other group declare the President incompetent, the President can just turn around and say “No, I am competent”. If the VP and other group still say that he’s incompetent, then the matter goes before both houses of Congress, and they both need a 2/3 agreement (a significantly higher bar than removal through impeachment, which only requires a majority in the House and 60% of the Senate) to permanently remove the President. So you’re positing a situation where the Vice President (and the cabinet, and a supermajority of both houses) says that the President should be replaced, but that he’s not going to be the one to do it? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/47 "2019-12-28T14:20:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, I’m _guessing_ how a hypothetical and unprecedented conflict between two of the three branches of the U.S. government will play out. It would certainly be amusing, I admit, if Pence showed hesitation and Pelosi instantly started calling herself the Acting President and issuing orders. Could Pence then demand to take the title and duties from her, if for some reason Trump himself was not able to do so? It’s potential constitutional-crisis territory. But why Pelosi? If you’re going to reference the 25th, why not ask what’ll happen if _you_ start calling yourself the Acting President before issuing orders? Or what’ll happen if a mayor or a high-school principal or the drunk down at the local bar starts saying that and doing that? I don’t see that the 25th says a thing about that drunk or that principal or that mayor starting the ball rolling, or a thing about Pelosi starting the ball rolling; why bother to construct that 25th-Amendment ‘crisis’ hypothetical involving her, when as far as I can tell the 25th involves either (a) Pence starting the ball rolling, or (b) _I’m sorry, I’ll say that again?_ ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/48 "2019-12-28T14:24:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, I’m _guessing_ how a hypothetical and unprecedented conflict between two of the three branches of the U.S. government will play out. It would certainly be amusing, I admit, if Pence showed hesitation and Pelosi instantly started calling herself the Acting President and issuing orders. Could Pence then demand to take the title and duties from her, if for some reason Trump himself was not able to do so? It’s potential constitutional-crisis territory. For an even bigger wrinkle, imagine that Trump imagines that if Pelosi becomes Acting President, however briefly, she’d have to resign as Speaker and he sees this as a brilliant 19-dimensional chess move on his part. Then Pelosi counters that the two occasions when Dick Cheney became Acting President, he didn’t resign the Vice-Presidency to do so, therefore she’s under no obligation to resign, either. I don’t think Pence COULD avoid becoming Acting President in this case. The 25th states pretty clearly that: > [@](#): > > _From Section 4 of the 25th Amendment_ > Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. The minute that decision is made and transmitted to Pelosi and Grassley then Pence is IT. He’s in the hot seat whether he wants it or not. It’s part of what he took on when he swore his oath of office. Now, he could resign as Acting President and that would drop it on Pelosi. But that requires an affirmative act on Pence’s part to resign. Pelosi can’t just say, “Too slow, Mike! Get our of my chair!” Plus, the 25th is a process, not a destination. Even after that happens a President can still offer to congress ‘No, I’m fine! I’m still President.’ and the same people who voted above - including Pence - would have to reassert his incapacity within 4 days. Then Congress has 21 days to decide things one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/49 "2019-12-28T14:37:08Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But why Pelosi? > > If you’re going to reference the 25th, why not ask what’ll happen if _you_ start calling yourself the Acting President before issuing orders? Or what’ll happen if a mayor or a high-school principal or the drunk down at the local bar starts saying that and doing that? I don’t see that the 25th says a thing about that drunk or that principal or that mayor starting the ball rolling, or a thing about Pelosi starting the ball rolling; why bother to construct that 25th-Amendment ‘crisis’ hypothetical involving her, when as far as I can tell the 25th involves either (a) Pence starting the ball rolling, or (b) _I’m sorry, I’ll say that again?_ I honestly can’t figure out what you’re objecting to. To me, it looks like a pretty straightforward if purely hypothetical chain of events: 1. Congress follows the relevant passage of the 25th: “…or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.” They set up such a body and it makes such a declaration. 2. In your post #38, you offer “Under the 25th, what can that body do if the VP says, _what’s that? Huh. No, he’s fine; did you have any other questions?_” 3. I take this to mean the Vice-President is _refusing_ the Acting Presidency, not rejecting the declaration that the President is unable to discharge (though that might be his intent). I don’t see anything in the 25th that says the Veep _can_ refuse to recognize the declaration. 4. Upon the Veep’s refusal to assume the duty, the line of succession moves to the Speaker (who is currently Nancy Pelosi, hence “why Pelosi”), who I _guess_ becomes Acting President. I’m not sure why you think it’s relevant that _ **I** _ might make a declaration that I’m now Acting President, or indeed why anyone not in the U.S. line of presidential succession making such a declaration might be considered relevant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/50 "2019-12-28T14:50:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out what you’re objecting to. To me, it looks like a pretty straightforward if purely hypothetical chain of events: > > 1. Congress follows the relevant passage of the 25th: “…or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.” They set up such a body and it makes such a declaration. As far as I can tell, it’s not “such other body”; it’s to be set in motion by the VP and members of that other body. If the VP isn’t on board at the start, then as far as I can tell there _is_ no start. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/51 "2019-12-28T14:51:21Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The minute that decision is made and transmitted to Pelosi and Grassley then Pence is IT. He’s in the hot seat whether he wants it or not. It’s part of what he took on when he swore his oath of office. And indeed if Pence says _nothing_, I have no objection. Post 38 hypothesizes that the Vice President was rejecting (if a bit vaguely) the circumstances under which he has become Acting President, which could be interpreted as a refusal to accept the appointment, and under those circumstances, I can picture the Speaker declaring “Then \*I’m \*in charge, now!” I am very confident the Vice President will spin faster than an Iranian centrifuge and respond “No, I’m Acting President”, and then do nothing with the office until the President can transmit his own declaration to re-assume the duties, which the Vice-President will pointedly not object to. But the body Congress has set up under this hypothetical _might_, and then things _really_ go nuts. At some point SCOTUS will have to step in and put some limits on what such a body can do, and can it over-ride the expressed wishes of the Vice-President. Interesting times. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/52 "2019-12-28T15:11:28Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > What kind of fucked up offices has Lee worked in?! I wondered that as well. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/53 "2019-12-28T15:15:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As far as I can tell, it’s not “such other body”; it’s to be set in motion by the VP and members of that other body. If the VP isn’t on board at the start, then as far as I can tell there _is_ no start. The text says “or”, not “and”. If the Veep isn’t on board but the congress-appointed body _is_, the text doesn’t clearly state the Veep can stop it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/54 "2019-12-28T16:07:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The text says “or”, not “and”. If the Veep isn’t on board but the congress-appointed body _is_, the text doesn’t clearly state the Veep can stop it. It says both: it says the Vice President _and_ a majority of either (a) the principal officers of the executive departments _or_ of (b) such other body as Congress may by law provide. The either/or part is built into the “and”: the VP and either X or Y. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/55 "2019-12-28T16:43:16Z")
One could interpret that as A and (B or C), or (A and B) or C. I’m confident in application you’re right and it will be the former, but we live in an age where facts are optionally alternative. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/56 "2019-12-28T17:01:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > One could interpret that as A and (B or C), or (A and B) or C. I’m confident in application you’re right and it will be the former, but we live in an age where facts are optionally alternative. Remove the word “either” from that Amendment and I’d maybe agree that it could be interpreted as A and (B or C) or as (A and B) or C. But that “either” seems to do all of the heavy lifting; I can only make it fit one of those readings. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/57 "2019-12-28T17:02:42Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > You’re claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second. Yes, against the swamp he pledged to drain. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/58 "2019-12-28T17:14:07Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Yes, against the swamp he pledged to drain. And the wall he pledged to build. And the wars he pledged to end. And the laughing he pledged to stop. And the manufacturing he pledged to bring back. Lies told, lies believed. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/59 "2019-12-28T17:36:47Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It’s not only nonsense, it’s complete fucking nonsense. > > In one instance, Nancy Pelosi is not his co-worker in any real way. She’s a part of a separate branch of government. Occasionally, they may be required to interact but they only do so at their own discretion. > > Yes, I suppose someone on the street may make the case that he’s somehow clinically insane - narcissism doesn’t count or we’d lose 90% of congress and CEOs - and therefore a danger to those around him. Sure, but that’s provided for by the 25th Amendment. If Pence and a majority of the cabinet - or other body as Congress may appoint - alerts Pelosi and Grassley that they believe he’s incapacitated he can be temporarily removed and a process begins where it can be permanent. > > There are only four ways to remove a sitting president. > > Loss of Election > Voluntary Resignation > 25th Amendment, Section 4 > Impeachment by the House and Removal by the Senate > > Anything else - ANYTHING ELSE - is fairytales and nonsense from someone who has either an ax to grind or column inches to fill. Learn this. Assume it into yourself. > > Because the sort of article you link? It doesn’t help. It’s the exact opposite of helping. It’s hysterical shrieking that agitates our opponents more than our own people. > > Want to remove Trump? Find your local Democratic Party office. Walk in. Volunteer. Donate money. Run for office yourself with the stated aim of returning dignity to elected office. > > But this? It’s just embarrassing for everyone involved. She is not his coworker? Huh? So turnp hasn’t done an insanely evil act on film yet, by your opinion? Great. So he hasn’t gone down and actually marched with the blood and soil crowd? Wonderful. Thanks for your insight. Are you filling up column inches too or are you special? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/60 "2019-12-28T17:52:50Z")
On reflection, I’ll gladly concede that whatever “body” congress provides by law for the purposes of evaluating a president’s fitness, it is far more likely to be seen as an alternative to the cabinet, rather than an alternative for the Vice-President _and_ cabinet, hence the Vice-President will have a critical role in any such evaluation and effectively a veto. I would like to note, however, that we seem to be living in an era where there is serious consideration (or at least lip-service to serious consideration) given to the questions of whether or not a president can pardon himself and whether or not impeachment means his term “doesn’t count”, letting him run for a third, so… don’t relax \*too \*much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461.md?page=4)