# Mental health hold on Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 27, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461 "2019-12-27T18:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/101 "2019-12-29T05:12:28Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > So crimes and sex abuses by elected officials are all dealt with solely by impeachment? It’s never a legal matter? It can be and in some cases it is. But not for the President at the constitution is currently interpreted. It can become a legal matter, but only after impeachment. In terms of elected officials? There have certainly been the amusing cases where an elected official HAS been prosecuted while in office, has been convicted and sentenced to prison and [still held that office](https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/can-a-senator-serve-in-congress-after-a-conviction-in-court) because the courts don’t wish to invalidate the sovereign will of the voters. That’s what happens if you have a conviction without an impeachment and removal. > [@](#): > > In the Senate, a convicted Senator can still vote if present, but the party leadership can change their committee status. And technically, absent their expulsion from Congress, a member can serve while in jail and run for re-election, unless they are convicted of treason. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/102 "2019-12-29T05:26:45Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Well,\* you\* made the statement about her professional warning, what did _you_ mean by it? I meant that she was delivering a professional warning. And you disagreed with it? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/103 "2019-12-29T05:33:24Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It can be and in some cases it is. But not for the President at the constitution is currently interpreted. It can become a legal matter, but only after impeachment. > > In terms of elected officials? There have certainly been the amusing cases where an elected official HAS been prosecuted while in office, has been convicted and sentenced to prison and [still held that office](https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/can-a-senator-serve-in-congress-after-a-conviction-in-court) because the courts don’t wish to invalidate the sovereign will of the voters. That’s what happens if you have a conviction without an impeachment and removal. What is the legal status of a matter that leads to impeachment? Basically DAs keeping files for the future? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/104 "2019-12-29T05:38:54Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It has been official Department of Justice policy for decades that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a criminal act while in office. All such prosecutions are held until that President is out of office through one of the four paths I outlined in an earlier post. Should Trump be removed through impeachment early next year I feel he’ll certainly have an interesting time of it with criminal charges being filed. I believe the Southern District of NY would already like to have words with him but have indicated they’re willing to wait. > > Civil issues CAN go forward as they did for Bill Clinton. > > But your railing to the skies that all that somehow doesn’t apply? It’s nonsense, of course. It does apply. It’s established policy since at least the Nixon administration and has continued straight through until today. > > An election is truly a sovereign act. Nothing save Impeachment will override that. The courts have been pretty clear on respecting the choice of the voters and I don’t see any court being willing to suddenly go against that precedent. He needs the pressure of this even if he cannot be removed now. toirnop is a fascist and he needs to be defeated in more ways than court or even the ballot box. Light a candle instead of berating activists. He needs to be humiiated. And these suits by conscientious acticists however they go are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/105 "2019-12-29T05:45:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Where are the board’s conservatives? The one time they can legitimately rag us about Trump Derangement Syndrome and they’re blowing it! Oh well, I suppose that always being in the wrong is what makes them conservatives. > > Have fun. I’m checking out. Somebody let me know if they show up and get in some good zingers. I’m sure the thread, despite already going in circles, is good for another three days at least. It’s political, meaning it’s about perceptions and the impulses of notional voters. So attempts to bring ternps mind to the public square are political and affect the reality as all things do which may affect public opinion. This should not even have to be said. So all attempt to silence activists are regressive. It shuts off avenues of vulnerability for tuoirnp. Keep doing that assholes work for him. I suppose there is a big contingent here of “Lets not scare or rile the republicans or else they will really do mean things to us in the future” Theer are activists who have perfectly valid insights as worthy as that, or more to share and they have real effects in the world. Politics. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/106 "2019-12-29T05:51:24Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What is the legal status of a matter that leads to impeachment? Basically DAs keeping files for the future? Yes, exactly so. DAs or other prosecutors can sit on their indictments until such time as the President CAN be prosecuted…i.e. when he’s no longer President. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/107 "2019-12-29T05:54:14Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I meant that she was delivering a professional warning. > > And you disagreed with it? As I said, I don’t think Trump qualifies for an involuntary mental health hold. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/108 "2019-12-29T05:57:12Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > He needs the pressure of this even if he cannot be removed now. > > toirnop is a fascist and he needs to be defeated in more ways than court or even the ballot box. Light a candle instead of berating activists. He needs to be humiiated. And these suits by conscientious acticists however they go are necessary. No, not really. They’re feel good statements that accomplish little and waste resources. Every erg of energy, every dollar spent and so forth is one that could be spent electing more like-minded people. No half-assed article in Salon - designed, in truth, to accomplish nothing except get people who are already outraged even further into irrationality - will accomplish as much as someone who phone banks. I work on campaigns all over the country. I organize letter writing campaigns, help write call scripts, help educate local candidates on issues. I do everything except raise money (I’m not allowed to do so) and I’ll contribute more to removing Trump and electing a lefty congress than Bandy Lee will ever do writing a motivated article to people who are already highly motivated to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/109 "2019-12-29T08:44:48Z")
How many ways are there to misspell Trump? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/110 "2019-12-29T08:53:05Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Hard disagree, she’s not right about his mind and psyche. Narcissism and grandiosity may well be dangerous in the powerful, and Trump may well be unfit, but the kind of holds discussed in that opinion piece apply to people who are imminently, creditably homicidal, suicidal or gravely disabled, Trump is not. It is not my area of practice, but this is my understanding as well. The idea is that I can be incredibly mentally unbalanced, be like Howard Hughes keeping my urine in jars, shut everyone out, yell at the neighborhood kids, and collect dead bugs I find, name them and have funerals for them. In a free country, I can do all of that. The only time the power of the state will prevent my eccentricities is when I become an imminent danger either to myself or others. We have nothing close to that here. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/111 "2019-12-29T17:06:11Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > How many ways are there to misspell Trump? Strangely enough it’s the same number of ways there are to spell Shakespeare. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/112 "2019-12-29T17:13:19Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > No, not really. They’re feel good statements that accomplish little and waste resources. Every erg of energy, every dollar spent and so forth is one that could be spent electing more like-minded people. No half-assed article in Salon - designed, in truth, to accomplish nothing except get people who are already outraged even further into irrationality - will accomplish as much as someone who phone banks. > > I work on campaigns all over the country. I organize letter writing campaigns, help write call scripts, help educate local candidates on issues. I do everything except raise money (I’m not allowed to do so) and I’ll contribute more to removing Trump and electing a lefty congress than Bandy Lee will ever do writing a motivated article to people who are already highly motivated to vote. Thanks for your work. What is it about activism though that pisses you off? She is pretty clearly speaking in public, and reaching out in the most effective way she can. The things you are doing are not perfectly effective either. Why all the vinegar for Lee on here? So no activism can be valid because they can’t get onto fox and one america news? BS. To me there is a reality bubble around toirnap, and all the hand wringing and warning about not disturbing that bubble??? Wow. You are not doing one thing about it. She is. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/113 "2019-12-29T17:49:37Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > I don’t agree that this is a valid professional warning,. What is a “valid professional warning”? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/114 "2019-12-29T18:12:21Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What is a “valid professional warning”? I don’t want to speak for outlierrn, of course. But I believe they are referring to an actual warning of a diagnosable condition that authorities could act upon. And it can’t be, of course. As has been pointed out, Lee has not met Trump and cannot, therefore, have actually diagnosed him. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/115 "2019-12-29T18:47:24Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I don’t want to speak for outlierrn, of course. But I believe they are referring to an actual warning of a diagnosable condition that authorities could act upon. > > And it can’t be, of course. As has been pointed out, Lee has not met Trump and cannot, therefore, have actually diagnosed him. OK. I don’t think she is claiming to have met him or diagnosed him professionally. I think she is acting under “duty to warn” doctrines. And that is already a part of the coverage of her and her message. So I don’t see deception or disingenuousness in it. And it doesn’t sound like she is a loony liberal or a crazy leftist or any of the names that some democrats here will give to outliers who upset them. If she is really the problem now then we might as well pack it in. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/116 "2019-12-29T18:49:52Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > How many ways are there to misspell Trump? Tramp Tromp Stump Stumpf Drumpf \* (previous) Drimpfle Trimpfle Chump Putin’s Puppy Felon ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/117 "2019-12-29T18:58:07Z")
triumphalism triumphallic symbol ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/118 "2019-12-29T19:26:57Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > In a free country, I can do all of that. The only time the power of the state will prevent my eccentricities is when I become an imminent danger either to myself or others. Yes, but there should be a more discriminating bar when it comes to the guy who literally holds nuclear launch codes. Howard Hughes wasn’t hurting anyone; POTUS could kill a hundred million people in a half an hour. That’s a distinction that seems lost on you. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/119 "2019-12-29T20:33:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yes, but there should be a more discriminating bar when it comes to the guy who literally holds nuclear launch codes. > > Howard Hughes wasn’t hurting anyone; POTUS could kill a hundred million people in a half an hour. That’s a distinction that seems lost on you. Right. He is a job holder, and also a job seeker, and we are the employers. His strength and inertia are just about the peculiar and unreformed laws around potuses. Got to do something about that. But he is not a regular citizen. He is not even pleading for any right that any citizen has. He is pleading theoretical non existent legal theories of immunity. He should not have to be held anyway, to be removed as psychologically unfit, by publically available evidence, no less. You don’t need to meet with someone to know he needs to go on the kinds of morals or conduct charges that prevail in other indistries. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461/120 "2019-12-29T21:16:24Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > is really pretty outrageous in the context of such a professional warning. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > What is a “valid professional warning”? Again, this is your term, why do you keep asking me to explain it? I am not commenting on the 25th amendment, nor what should or ought to be the standards applied to the POTUS. With regards to an involuntary mental health hold, such as referenced in that article as something a family member or co-worker can initiate, a valid example would be a secret service agent reporting that Trump demanded his weapon in order to prove he could shoot someone on 5th avenue with impunity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-health-hold-on-trump/845461.md?page=7)