# Mental Illness and Stigmatization **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 15, 2008, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684 "2008-09-15T11:25:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/41 "2008-09-16T01:40:43Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Trust me, I’ve seen the links before :rolleyes: It is your prerogative to disagree with the World Health Organization’s categories. > [@GorillaMan](#): > > Just because it’s a long sentence, it doesn’t always make sense. I don’t know what you’re actually saying here. Swap “mitigation” for “mitigated” and it should make sense. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/42 "2008-09-16T03:52:17Z")
I work in a position where applicants are vigorously screened for mental health. Anyone with any history of mental health problems- even stuff that happened decades ago when they were teens- are required to get various evaluations and statements, including from their original diagnosers. It does shit all to keep the crazies out. I’ve seen more batshit crazy in this program than I’ve seen in my life. What this does is make life difficult for the normal people who had a few bad months in college or whose parents made them see a shrink in middle school because they wore too much black. It doesn’t begin to touch the absolutely out of touch people who have raging untreated mental problems. On a practical level, I think most people exhibit symptoms of depression occasionally. Furthermore I have no doubt any person could walk in to a doctor’s office and walk out with a prescription for anti-depressants. We aren’t talking about something that is cut and dried here. Furthermore “drugging small children” isn’t at all something typical of depression. Depressed people sleep a lot and cry, they don’t generally act out on others. Finally, if you know seeking treatment is going to hurt your ability to make a living for the rest of your life, well, you are less likely to seek treatment. Is the amount of harm prevented by restricting work opportunities for people who have had mental health problems anywhere near the harm that can be caused by motivating sick people not to seek treatment for their illnesses? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/43 "2008-09-16T04:23:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > “Near certainty” does not equal “guarantee”. If I had intended to say “certainty” I would not have said “near certainty”. But you aren’t even going to get that. Many suicidal people can fake happy all the time in their everyday lives, and even most of the ones who can’t do that can at least paste on a smile and lie to a shrink for an hour a week. And considering the attitudes towards mental illness you see in society, they have one hell of a big incentive to lie. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/44 "2008-09-16T06:17:45Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It is your prerogative to disagree with the World Health Organization’s categories. It’s your prerogative to ignore what I’ve been saying, too. _You can’t diagnose her from here._ ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/45 "2008-09-16T10:31:01Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > It’s your prerogative to ignore what I’ve been saying, too. _You can’t diagnose her from here._ Please do not put words in my mouth. I’m not trying to diagnose her. She was reported to have had a clinical depression and two have made two suicide attempts. That is not a diagnosis by me. Those are facts reported from a court hearing. Nor is my saying that this is a big red flag a diagnosis. Nor is my saying that the onus should be on her a diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/46 "2008-09-16T15:59:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That cannot be compared to a mentally ill person that doesn’t harm her charges. Like I said, we have no idea what issues the people in our childrens’ lives have. Or even, what issues some children’s parents have, from the child care worker’s point of view, for example, and to flip the scenario. Should a “mentally ill” or “depressed person” never be allowed to have children or have their children taken away based on what they “might do” to their children? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/47 "2008-09-16T16:13:50Z")
i guess I should be more clear **Kaalhoun** , I was just using your well made point as a jumping off point. The question is rhetorical and intended for all. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/48 "2008-09-16T16:24:12Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > i guess I should be more clear **Kaalhoun** , I was just using your well made point as a jumping off point. The question is rhetorical and intended for all. Intention understood. And I agree with you. This is especially true for parents with mental illness. You don’t know when it will strike or what the intensity of the illness will be. Do we just start taking everyone’s children away from them because they’ve had issues at one time or another throughout their lives? That’s a sure guarantee of people NEVER getting better because they won’t seek help if it means someone will arbitrarily decide whether or not they’re fit to parent. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/49 "2008-09-16T21:09:07Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Please do not put words in my mouth. I’m not trying to diagnose her. She was reported to have had a clinical depression and two have made two suicide attempts. That is not a diagnosis by me. Those are facts reported from a court hearing. Nor is my saying that this is a big red flag a diagnosis. Nor is my saying that the onus should be on her a diagnosis. Oh, for goodness sake, let me go back to your own words, then. > [@Muffin](#): > > So if not (a)1 “personality disorder” then (c)1 “mental condition.” Comes out the same in the end in that people who try to kill themselves repeatedly are not permitted to pilot airliners. That’s not what the regulations say. They say that the Federal Air Surgeon has the power to rule an individual as unfit to fly a plane due to other mental conditions. It doesn’t say anything about everybody with histories of suicide attempts coming under this catagory. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/50 "2008-09-17T03:13:11Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > That’s not what the regulations say. They say that the Federal Air Surgeon has the power to rule an individual as unfit to fly a plane due to other mental conditions. It doesn’t say anything about everybody with histories of suicide attempts coming under this catagory. > [@GorillaMan](#): > > Trust me, I’ve seen the links before :rolleyes: Then you will recall the 32.2 (Severe depressive episode without psychotic symptoms) and 32.3 (Severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms) subsets of the World Health Organization link that both specifically include suicide. If you don’t think that clinical depression and a couple of suicide attempts is not a big red flag, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/51 "2008-09-17T10:29:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Then you will recall the 32.2 (Severe depressive episode without psychotic symptoms) and 32.3 (Severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms) subsets of the World Health Organization link that both specifically include suicide. > > If you don’t think that clinical depression and a couple of suicide attempts is not a big red flag, so be it. Do you put a time limit on when the episode occurred? Is 10 years of episode-free mental health long enough to allow the person to be considered healthy? Maybe 20 years? What is the cut-off? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/52 "2008-09-17T12:02:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Do you put a time limit on when the episode occurred? Is 10 years of episode-free mental health long enough to allow the person to be considered healthy? Maybe 20 years? What is the cut-off? That I would leave to expert opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/53 "2008-09-17T12:47:20Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That I would leave to expert opinion. While we all strive to Think Of The Children! ™, I think the experts agree that mental illness (even mental illness that includes suicide attempts) are not a deal breaker for caring for children. Besides, the cost of sifting through the thousands of near-minimum wage applicants and footing the bill on background checks and expert opinions isn’t cost-effective. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/54 "2008-09-17T13:00:04Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Well, let’s deal with the slippery slope argument, a profession that both of you have put forward as an example – pilot. > > For a commercial airline pilot flying passenger airliners, which of the following criteria should no longer be applied? > [http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=389acb7e97ca752be8f8fbb939ae5cf5;rgn=div5;view=text;node=14%3A2.0.1.1.5;idno=14;cc=ecfr#14:2.0.1.1.5.2.1.4](http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=389acb7e97ca752be8f8fbb939ae5cf5;rgn=div5;view=text;node=14%3A2.0.1.1.5;idno=14;cc=ecfr#14:2.0.1.1.5.2.1.4) > A person who tried to kill herself a couple of times would be out of the running based on ground (1). > > For this particular job, should this particular ground be changed so that despite a history of suicide attempts, a person could pilot a passenger airliner, and if so, what would be the specific conditions that you would impose? No suicide attempts in the last decade? No suicide attempts in the last two years? No suicide attempts in the last month? No license restriction even if there are presently ongoing suicide attempts? No license restriction provided there is ongoing treatment and there has not been a suicide attempt for a certain period of time? No license restriction provided there is ongoing monitoring and there has not been a suicide attempt for a certain period of time? Have at it – come up with a regulation that will mitigate the matter so as to protect the public. By having any regulation, be it tight or loose, or by failing to have any regulation, you will be on a slippery slope. You cannot avoid being on a slippery slope, so you had best deal with it head on in giving very careful consideration to the regulations you put in place or do not put in place. There is, in fact, a mechanism already in place for dealing with this issue in regards to pilots. Among other things, there must be an examination by a board-certified psychiatrist, the prospective pilot can not be on any maintenance medication, and a bunch of other stuff. Each such case is individually examined by staff at the medical certification branch in Oklahoma City. So, a person with _ongoing_ clinical depression, or who requires daily medication to control their depression, would not qualify for a medical waiver to the pertinent part of the above regulation. On the other hand, someone who, say, had a bought of post-partum depression with a suicide attempt 10 years ago that has, as they put it, “resolved” and is no longer causing issues and does not require medication can qualify for a license. Or someone who had problems with drug abuse and slashed their wrists at 18 can, if they are clean and sober for sufficient period of time and no longer manifesting psychological problems, get a license at, say, 25. An active pilot who, for instance, suffers some mental problems (perhaps after the death of a loved one, or after a disaster of some sort), voluntarily grounds himself, gets counseling, and deals with the issue will almost certainly be permitted to keep flying after they recover, meaning they no longer need ongoing therapy, _provided they are not on medication_. And that’s a huge kicker, the way things like Prozac are handed out these days. There’s also the issue that passenger airlines frequently want their pilots “waiver-free” - they can refuse to hire someone for something as trivial as needing reading glasses. So, by having a waiver your employment options as a pilot will be limited, but that’s more the fact that you have a waiver of any sort rather than what it is for (although, yeah, waivers due to drug/alcohol and mental issues do get a LOT of scrutiny) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/55 "2008-09-17T15:27:05Z")
I think it would be useful to make a distinction between two different elements of the situation as they might impinge upon employment eligibility: • person in question has a psychiatric diagnosis, _clinical depression_ or equally serious equivalent such as _bipolar disorder_ or _schizophrenia_ • person in question has a specific history of some sort of dangerous behavior, established as fact via decently solid corroborating evidence or the person’s own admission I think the first factor washes out, or should: it is entirely reasonable to take someone’s previous behavior into account when considering hiring them. I don’t happen to think that prior _suicidal_ behavior is a very good predictor of dangerousness to _other people_, but I can’t get overly worked up about it as a civil rights issue, issue of stigmatization, if it had occurred in the recent past. I’d be more inclined to do so if it had occurred a long time ago. In contrast, I don’t think it should matter whether the person was or was not given a psychiatric diagnosis as a consequence of the behavior. And certainly without the behavior, the diagnosis by itself doesn’t constitute sufficient reason to deny employement, licenses, etc… and that’s where we go all civil libertarian on your ass if you dissent with that. ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/56 "2008-09-17T16:24:43Z")
A person who has had mental disorders their whole life has, in my opinion, no business taking care of children. If they are healthy and have been for a few years, then maybe… But for the most part, I strongly feel that a person should be mentally healthy to take care of children. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/57 "2008-09-17T16:54:10Z")
> [@diggleblop](#): > > But for the most part, I strongly feel that a person should be mentally healthy to take care of children. Does that extend to giving birth? How about privately hired baby sitters? How about having your batty aunt watch the kids for a few hours? What other jobs do you think people who have experienced mental illness should be barred from? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/58 "2008-09-17T17:22:01Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Does that extend to giving birth? How about privately hired baby sitters? How about having your batty aunt watch the kids for a few hours? > > What other jobs do you think people who have experienced mental illness should be barred from? I’m interested in hearing the definition of “mentally healthy.” ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/59 "2008-09-18T03:50:03Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m interested in hearing the definition of “mentally healthy.” And who is to decide who is “mentally healthy”? Is it based on your opinion, **digglebop**? Or maybe the ever so prudent “determination” of the poliitical, religous, and cultural bureaucracy of Psychiatry and Psychology? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684/60 "2008-09-18T11:24:17Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Then you will recall the 32.2 (Severe depressive episode without psychotic symptoms) and 32.3 (Severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms) subsets of the World Health Organization link that both specifically include suicide. Yes, suicidal tendencies or acts _can_ be one of the symptoms. What you’re doing is akin to saying that everybody who sneezes has caught a cold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-and-stigmatization/463684.md?page=2)