# Mental illness is exaggerated **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522 "2013-06-09T03:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/101 "2013-06-10T15:33:09Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Some states are 72 hours, some are 14 days before you see a judge. But would you want to be locked up for 72 hours if your not mentally ill? That’s 3 days basically in a jail. The police cant do that and neither should anyone else be allowed to. In which jurisdiction is the period for an emergency hold 14 days? It is not three days in jail, it is three days in a psychiatric facility. The alternative is that there is no method by which people who are threatening to hurt themselves or hurt other people can be detained and evaluated unless they themselves are willing to voluntarily be admitted for evaluation. It is not ideal, but if you ask the loved ones coping with an individual’s mental illness, they would not prefer the alternative. Again, psychiatrists aren’t patrolling the streets capturing prey. People come to them of their own accord or at the behest of others due to concerns about their functioning. ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/102 "2013-06-10T15:39:37Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > In which jurisdiction is the period for an emergency hold 14 days? > > It is not three days in jail, it is three days in a psychiatric facility. > > The alternative is that there is no method by which people who are threatening to hurt themselves or hurt other people can be detained and evaluated unless they themselves are willing to voluntarily be admitted for evaluation. It is not ideal, but if you ask the loved ones coping with an individual’s mental illness, they would not prefer the alternative. > > Again, psychiatrists aren’t patrolling the streets capturing prey. People come to them of their own accord or at the behest of others due to concerns about their functioning. In new york state it is 14 days. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/103 "2013-06-10T15:41:02Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Some states are 72 hours, some are 14 days before you see a judge. But would you want to be locked up for 72 hours if your not mentally ill? That’s 3 days basically in a jail. The police cant do that and neither should anyone else be allowed to. Yes, the police [can do that.](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/chronology-the-arrest-process.html) Most states allow 72 hours before a prisoner must be charged or released. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/104 "2013-06-10T15:44:44Z")
One thing everybody needs to realize is that drug–excuse me, pharmaceutical–companies are in business to make money. How do they make it? BY GETTING DOCTORS TO OVER DIAGNOSIS MENTAL ILLNESS AND OVERPRESCRIBE DRUGS! The companies do not give a rat’s ass about whether the drugs–excuse me, medications–are needed or taken, as long as they make money off of them. If they could get everyone in the universe on drugs–excuse me, psychotropic medications–they jolly well would. ETA: > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, the police [can do that.](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/chronology-the-arrest-process.html) Most states allow 72 hours before a prisoner must be charged or released. Happened to me, and the shrink insisted I had to take Celexa. What fucking good does taking an anti-depressant for three fucking days do? ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/105 "2013-06-10T15:47:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, the police [can do that.](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/chronology-the-arrest-process.html) Most states allow 72 hours before a prisoner must be charged or released. When you arrested by the police for a crime your seen by a judge within 24 hours or less and can then get bail and most misdemeanors arrests are only kept a couple hours before they get bail. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/106 "2013-06-10T15:48:48Z")
Probably already addressed, but as the OP keeps using Thomas Szasz and The Myth of Mental Illness: Foundations of a Theory of Personal Conduct to ‘prove’ his case, I figured I’d like to [this](http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-myth-of-thomas-szasz): > [@](#): > > Today, of course, Szasz is mostly remembered, if he is remembered at all, as the great silly, a flat-earth adherent in the time of telescopes and globes. Most medical students graduate without ever hearing his name. Peers who once grappled fiercely with his ideas are now surprised to find out he is still alive. His voluminous writings largely gather dust in libraries and used book stores. At a 1996 debate, well-known psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey summed up the sentiment nicely with a joke that began: “Let me ask an important question. And this is a question that will be asked by future generations. The question is: Who was Dr. Szasz?” Few in the audience needed a punch line. The question itself was dénouement enough. “If he is unable to acknowledge his big mistake,” Torrey finished, “I think the answer to the question will be: ‘Dr Szasz was the man who wrote The Cat in the Hat, Hop on Pop and Horton Hatches the Egg.’” The audience roared. > > One can hardly be surprised if Szasz has assumed the role reserved for all failed revolutionaries — a marker of backwardness against which to measure our enlightenment, his name a synonym for error. The disease model of mental illness is now so central to American medicine and culture that the most common response to Szasz — aside from utter disregard — is typically something like: “Just look around — anguished teenagers, depressed adults, distracted children. Only a fool would believe that mental illness is a myth.” Indeed, to the modern psychiatric mind, rejecting the legitimacy of mental illness is not just an error but an act of inhumanity, leaving the sick without the hope of a cure. The Szaszians of the world are not just fools but monsters. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/107 "2013-06-10T15:55:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > In which jurisdiction is the period for an emergency hold 14 days? Here you go, **matt357** : [laws regarding emergency psychiatric holds by state](http://treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/documents/Emergency_Hospitalization_for_Evaluation.pdf). I seem to have missed where there’s a 14-day hold but I’m sure you can point it out. > [@](#): > > Again, psychiatrists aren’t patrolling the streets capturing prey. People come to them of their own accord or at the behest of others due to concerns about their functioning. Actually, my SO is a psychiatric social worker at a large hospital, and she tells me that they don’t admit patients through (say) the ER. Rather, one of the psychiatrists comes in each morning dragging a bag which holds a kicking and screaming new “patient”. They don’t seem crazy at first … but after a few days of compulsory ECT and a round of old-school antipsychotics, they start to show their true colors. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/108 "2013-06-10T15:57:10Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > When you arrested by the police for a crime your seen by a judge within 24 hours or less and can then get bail and most misdemeanors arrests are only kept a couple hours before they get bail. That certainly is often the case, but you said the police _couldn’t_ hold someone for 72 hours. In fact, they can, they just generally don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/109 "2013-06-10T15:58:36Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Here you go, **matt357** : [laws regarding emergency psychiatric holds by state](http://treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/documents/Emergency_Hospitalization_for_Evaluation.pdf). I can’t open pdfs at work-what does it say about New York State? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/110 "2013-06-10T16:01:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can’t open pdfs at work-what does it say about New York State? "[A]ny person alleged to have a mental illness for which immediate observation, care, and treatment in a hospital is appropriate and which is likely to result in serious harm to himself or others. “Likelihood to result in serious harm” as used in this article shall mean: 1. substantial risk of physical harm to himself as manifested by threats of or attempts at suicide or serious bodily harm or other conduct demonstrating that he is dangerous to himself, or 2. a substantial risk of physical harm to other persons as manifested by homicidal or other violent behavior by which others are placed in reasonable fear of serious physical harm." ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/111 "2013-06-10T16:02:17Z")
[Rights of Inpatients in New York State Office of Mental Health Psychiatric Centers](http://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/patientrights/inpatient_rts.htm) > [@](#): > > Involuntary admission can take place in one of three ways: > > 1. Medical certification, which requires that two physicians examine a person and certify that he or she needs involuntary care and treatment in a psychiatric facility. This is sometimes known informally as a “two p.c.” shorthand for “two physicians certify.” This certification must be accompanied by an application for admission, made by someone familiar with the individual (for example, a legal guardian, custodian, next of kin, treating psychiatrist or someone who lives with the person) or by one of a number of government officials. > > If you are involuntarily admitted on a medical certificate, or converted to that status, you may be kept in a psychiatric center for up to 60 days. If you - or a relative, friend or the Mental Hygiene Legal Service - believe that you do not need to be involuntarily hospitalized you or any of the others may apply for a court hearing on this matter. > > At the end of this 60 days, and periodically after that, the psychiatric center director must apply to a judge for authorization to retain you as an involuntary status patient. You must be notified when such an application is made, and you have the right to object and to be represented by the Mental Hygiene Legal Service or your own attorney at the hearing. > > 1. Certification by a director of community services, or an examining physician designated by the director of community services. > > This certificate states that the person has a mental illness which is likely to result in serious harm to self or others and for which immediate inpatient care and treatment is appropriate. > > If you are admitted in this way, you must be examined within 72 hours by a staff psychiatrist. If the psychiatrist confirms that you meet the requirements for involuntary admission based on medical certification, you may be kept in the psychiatric center for up to 60 days. The procedure for involuntary retention beyond 60 days, and the patient’s right to a hearing, are the same as outlined in Section 1, above. > > 1. Emergency admission based on the claim that the person has a mental illness which is likely to result in serious harm to self or others and for which immediate observation, care and treatment in a psychiatric center is appropriate. > > If you are admitted in this way, you must be examined within 48 hours by a staff psychiatrist. If he or she confirms that you meet the requirements for emergency admission, you may be kept in the psychiatric center for up to 15 days. For you to be kept involuntarily beyond 15 days, you must meet the requirements for, and be converted to, an involuntary admission based on medical certification. (See Section 1, above, for a description of your right to a hearing.) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/112 "2013-06-10T16:04:09Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > One thing everybody needs to realize is that drug–excuse me, pharmaceutical–companies are in business to make money. How do they make it? BY GETTING DOCTORS TO OVER DIAGNOSIS MENTAL ILLNESS AND OVERPRESCRIBE DRUGS! Really? How? Bribery? Force? Doctors don’t just go overdiagnosing things to make drug companies happy. They don’t get financial reward from it either. And except perhaps in extreme situations, patients aren’t forced to take the doctor’s advice or the meds. So enough with the conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/113 "2013-06-10T16:48:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Rights of Inpatients in New York State Office of Mental Health Psychiatric Centers Involuntary admission can take place in one of three ways: > > 1. Medical certification, which requires that two physicians examine a person and certify that he or she needs involuntary care and treatment in a psychiatric facility. This is sometimes known informally as a “two p.c.” shorthand for “two physicians certify.” This certification must be accompanied by an application for admission, made by someone familiar with the individual (for example, a legal guardian, custodian, next of kin, treating psychiatrist or someone who lives with the person) or by one of a number of government officials. > > If you are involuntarily admitted on a medical certificate, or converted to that status, you may be kept in a psychiatric center for up to 60 days. If you - or a relative, friend or the Mental Hygiene Legal Service - believe that you do not need to be involuntarily hospitalized you or any of the others may apply for a court hearing on this matter. > > At the end of this 60 days, and periodically after that, the psychiatric center director must apply to a judge for authorization to retain you as an involuntary status patient. You must be notified when such an application is made, and you have the right to object and to be represented by the Mental Hygiene Legal Service or your own attorney at the hearing. > > 1. Certification by a director of community services, or an examining physician designated by the director of community services. > > This certificate states that the person has a mental illness which is likely to result in serious harm to self or others and for which immediate inpatient care and treatment is appropriate. > > If you are admitted in this way, you must be examined within 72 hours by a staff psychiatrist. If the psychiatrist confirms that you meet the requirements for involuntary admission based on medical certification, you may be kept in the psychiatric center for up to 60 days. The procedure for involuntary retention beyond 60 days, and the patient’s right to a hearing, are the same as outlined in Section 1, above. > > 1. Emergency admission based on the claim that the person has a mental illness which is likely to result in serious harm to self or others and for which immediate observation, care and treatment in a psychiatric center is appropriate. > > If you are admitted in this way, you must be examined within 48 hours by a staff psychiatrist. If he or she confirms that you meet the requirements for emergency admission, you may be kept in the psychiatric center for up to 15 days. For you to be kept involuntarily beyond 15 days, you must meet the requirements for, and be converted to, an involuntary admission based on medical certification. (See Section 1, above, for a description of your right to a hearing.)]([http://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/patientrights/inpatient\_rts.htm](http://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/patientrights/inpatient_rts.htm)) If that’s not unconstitutional I don’t know what is. Absolutely disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/114 "2013-06-10T16:50:28Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > If that’s not unconstitutional I don’t know what is. I vote for #2. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/115 "2013-06-10T16:54:29Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > If that’s not unconstitutional I don’t know what is. Absolutely disgusting. What part of the Constitution do you think it violates? The procedures clearly constitute due process of law. Furthermore, let’s assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct, and only schizophrenia is a “real” mental illness. What, then, to do with dangerous schizophreniacs who refuse treatment? ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/116 "2013-06-10T17:01:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What part of the Constitution do you think it violates? The procedures clearly constitute due process of law. > > Furthermore, let’s assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct, and only schizophrenia is a “real” mental illness. What, then, to do with dangerous schizophreniacs who refuse treatment? The part where they can lock up someone for 60 days just because a man in a white coat checks the right boxes regardless if he is being honest or objective. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/117 "2013-06-10T17:04:38Z")
I can’t help noticing your opinions of psychiatrists are based entirely on stereotypes without too much legal or medical knowledge getting in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/118 "2013-06-10T17:07:49Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > The part where they can lock up someone for 60 days just because a man in a white coat checks the right boxes regardless if he is being honest or objective. My copy of the Constitution must be missing that section. All it says is that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. Which is not violated by the New York statute, as it provides for (multiple) court hearings, not the opinion of one man in a white coat. And in New York, _one_ man in a coat can only commit someone for 15 days, all the non-emergency (60-day) methods require multiple people. ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/119 "2013-06-10T17:15:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > My copy of the Constitution must be missing that section. All it says is that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. Which is not violated by the New York statute, as it provides for (multiple) court hearings, not the opinion of one man in a white coat. It is depriving them of liberty, it is a violation of habeas corpus, it is a violation of the freedom this country stand for. Locking someone up for 60 days before they can see a judge should not be legal clearly and is not in most other States which is 72 hours. The same standards of proof and legal safeguards that are applied to arrests should be applied to psych wards since your depriving someone of their liberty. I think you invented the part about “multiple court hearings” since it makes no mention of that. All it takes is 2 doctors to examine them to commit them for 60 days with no judge approval. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/120 "2013-06-10T17:32:17Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > It is depriving them of liberty, it is a violation of habeas corpus, it is a violation of the freedom this country stand for. We deprive people of liberty all the time. But we do so with due process and reasonable review. It’s constitutional, and makes a lot of sense. You could potentially argue the case that the process as it stands today should be modified in some way and people would consider your points, but I don’t see you making any coherent case of that nature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522.md?page=7)