# Mental illness is exaggerated **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522 "2013-06-09T03:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/121 "2013-06-10T17:53:38Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > It is depriving them of liberty, it is a violation of habeas corpus, it is a violation of the freedom this country stand for. Locking someone up for 60 days before they can see a judge should not be legal clearly and is not in most other States which is 72 hours. The same standards of proof and legal safeguards that are applied to arrests should be applied to psych wards since your depriving someone of their liberty. Deprivation of liberty is permissiable if it’s subject to due process of law. See also: prison. Habeas corpus applies to unlawful imprisonment, not _any and all_ confinement. See also: prison. This country doesn’t stand for the freedom of those mentally ill persons who are a threat to themselves or others to harm themselves or others, and it never has. Involuntary commitment was much easier to accomplish, and much harder to be released from, in the recent past. Most states’ emergency commitments are for about 72 hours, but you’re not talking about the emergency commitment anymore, as that’s not what New York’s 60-day period applies to. There is no state in which the longest anyone can be involuntarily commited is 72 hours, because all states must deal with those who are dangerous and mentally ill. For instance, my state of Kentucky has a 72-hour emergency commitment procedure, _and_ a more stringent 60-360 day [procedure.](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/202A00/051.PDF) Commitment and criminal arrest have some similarities, but they cannot be subject to exactly the same procedures, because they aren’t the same thing. > [@matt357](#): > > I think you invented the part about “multiple court hearings” since it makes no mention of that. All it takes is 2 doctors to examine them to commit them for 60 days with no judge approval. Then I retort that you invented the part about “a man in a white coat”, as the 60-day commitment requires two doctors. The hearing is after the 60 days, and periodically afterward. Also note that the two doctors are responding to an application of admission made by someone familiar with the individual, not snatching people off the streets. And again, if you allow that schizophrenia exists and can be dangerous, how are we to deal with dangerous schizophreniacs? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/122 "2013-06-10T18:23:29Z")
Hello, I’m **AHunter3** and I was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. I am not, however, a psychiatrist. > [@nion](#): > > I’ll grant that to a point. I suppose I see Alzheimer’s as more of a chronic physical disease. Mental illnesses are by and large chemical imbalances. It is a subtle difference, but a notable one I feel. > [@nickak2003](#): > > mental illnesses exist in the way all other illnesses exist. To say that mental illness does not exist is like saying back or organ illnesses do not exist. As a matter of historical fact, the branch of medical practice called “psychiatry” has, over the last 150-or-so years, often been deprived of jurisdiction over the ailments for which actual physical causes were isolated and effective treatments derived from those understandings. This was in part because Joe Average Person for whom an actual medical treatment could be provided would far far rather go to an endocrinologist or an internist or a neurologist. And why (you may well ask) did psychiatry have a reputation such that Joe Average would recoil at the idea of going to one? Sure, the “quack” reputation played a part (but would have been ameliorated by the profession coming up with actual cures and stuff) but also the police role of psychiatry. For its entire history, psychiatry has been… let’s not call them the Thought Police, that’s too melodramatic and it isn’t your thoughts that get you locked up it’s your behavior that’s _based on_ your thoughts, in conjunction with your emotional state… the Behavioral Police, then. Locking people up for the comfort-level and convenience of the rest of society. The removal of the disturbING, whether they themselves are disturbED, or view themselves as such, or not. Oh, and there are no “chemical imbalances”. That’s an old theory that was never borne out by facts. Bipolar disorder is not caused by a “chemical imbalance”. Schizophrenia is not caused by one either. Neither is clinical depression. All theories of “chemical imbalance” originated in the optimistic assumption that insofar as Drug X seemed to be “fixing” Mental Disease Y, and we could study exactly what Drug X does with neurotransmitters and receptor sites in the brain and so on, it would turn out that Mental Disease Y would prove to be an excess or a shortfall of a neurotransmitter or an excess or shortfall of the uptake chemicals that soak up excess neurotransmitters or an insensitivity or oversensitivity or overabundance or shortage of receptor sites for the neurotransmitters to act on… SOMETHING like that would be found. It wasn’t. It has not. It isn’t. The psych meds adjust symptoms but not (as far as any evidence supports) by undoing or ameliorating any underlying condition directly caused by or associated with the psych disorder itself. Doesn’t keep the psych profession or the pharmaceutical industry from continuing to promote the idea though. > [@matt357](#): > > The part where they can lock up someone for 60 days just because a man in a white coat checks the right boxes regardless if he is being honest or objective. Yeah, that. Hello again. I’m part of a movement of activist schizzy-libbers, uppity mental patients and survivors of psychiatric incarceration and intervention who _oppose forced treatment_ first and foremost. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/123 "2013-06-10T18:28:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And again, if you allow that schizophrenia exists and can be dangerous, how are we to deal with dangerous schizophreniacs? I’m not **matt357** to whom you addressed that question, but why not deal with dangerous schizzies exactly the way we deal with dangerous NON-schizzies? For everyone else, you get locked up and charged because of something THAT YOU DO, not something that some self-important pompous shrink-professional thinks you MIGHT do. I don’t know where you stand on the whole issue of free will versus determinism but our legal system is based on personal responsibility and unless you propose to change it for everyone and start over with different assumptions, why not treat us the same way? Being crazy should not be grounds for locking us up. If you want to try to prove one of us to be fully mentally incompetent (i.e., doesn’t know who the president is, can’t explain how to deal with having taken the wrong flight or the wrong bus and ending up in a strange town, isn’t oriented to date and time and place, can’t remember shit, can’t manage finances, etc etc) that’s a different story. But I don’t see why anyone else’s opinion of my decision-making should have any legal weight. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/124 "2013-06-10T18:40:01Z")
I disagree with **Matt357** rather strongly. My paternal grandfather was schizophrenic. I am not schizophrenic but do have chronic depression ADHD Social Anxiety Disorder General Anxiety Disorder Obsessive Compulsive Disorder I am currently on Lithum Carbonate Methylphenidate Paxil Abilify I’ve known many people who were clearly mentally ill. **AHunter3** I am familiar with and respect your views and arguments on mental health. Frankly, I worry that your presence here will inadvertently add credence to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/125 "2013-06-10T18:45:22Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m not **matt357** to whom you addressed that question, but why not deal with dangerous schizzies exactly the way we deal with dangerous NON-schizzies? For everyone else, you get locked up and charged because of something THAT YOU DO, not something that some self-important pompous shrink-professional thinks you MIGHT do. What about the unassuming and humble shrink-professional? What do we do about the man who says that he has found himself increasingly contemplating ending his life, and has been fantasizing about a plan that involves jumping off a bridge, and who isn’t at all sure that he won’t carry out that plan upon leaving your office? How about the woman who has grown more and more depressed recently who tells you she repeatedly has fantasies that involve drowning her young children and found herself yesterday filling up the tub. What about the guy who is planning on taking his gun in to work because he has become more certain that his coworkers are plotting to kill him - they have been bugging his phones and following him home and who have been leaving signs of their ill-intent around the office so that he is the only one who can pick up on them? It’s well and good to suggest that the single standard should be judicial involvement for behaviors that have been committed, but there are many circumstances where the likelihood of dire outcomes grows so great that just shrugging our shoulders and waiting until behavior actually occurs is intolerable. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/126 "2013-06-10T18:48:45Z")
I notice that [The Economist](http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/does-psychiatry-medicalise-too-many-normal-behaviours) is currently hosting a debate on this very topic, and has a [linked article](http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21578024-american-psychiatric-associations-latest-diagnostic-manual-remains-flawed) too (I think it’s free to read, but requires registration :mad:). I wish they’d put more options in the poll than “yes” and “no”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/127 "2013-06-10T18:51:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I disagree with **Matt357** rather strongly. My paternal grandfather was schizophrenic. I am not schizophrenic but do have > > chronic depression > ADHD > Social Anxiety Disorder > General Anxiety Disorder > Obsessive Compulsive Disorder > > I am currently on > > Lithum Carbonate > Methylphenidate > Paxil > Abilify > > I’ve known many people who were clearly mentally ill. > > **AHunter3** I am familiar with and respect your views and arguments on mental health. Frankly, I worry that your presence here will inadvertently add credence to the OP. Ah, but didn’t you read what Matt said? You don’t really have any of that. The doctors just want to make the drug companies rich. Your actual symptoms are imaginary, or normal. No, really. See, I cured you! ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/128 "2013-06-10T18:57:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Deprivation of liberty is permissiable if it’s subject to due process of law. See also: prison. > > Habeas corpus applies to unlawful imprisonment, not _any and all_ confinement. See also: prison. > > This country doesn’t stand for the freedom of those mentally ill persons who are a threat to themselves or others to harm themselves or others, and it never has. Involuntary commitment was much easier to accomplish, and much harder to be released from, in the recent past. > > Most states’ emergency commitments are for about 72 hours, but you’re not talking about the emergency commitment anymore, as that’s not what New York’s 60-day period applies to. There is no state in which the longest anyone can be involuntarily commited is 72 hours, because all states must deal with those who are dangerous and mentally ill. For instance, my state of Kentucky has a 72-hour emergency commitment procedure, _and_ a more stringent 60-360 day [procedure.](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/202A00/051.PDF) > > Commitment and criminal arrest have some similarities, but they cannot be subject to exactly the same procedures, because they aren’t the same thing. > > Then I retort that you invented the part about “a man in a white coat”, as the 60-day commitment requires two doctors. > > The hearing is after the 60 days, and periodically afterward. Also note that the two doctors are responding to an application of admission made by someone familiar with the individual, not snatching people off the streets. > And again, if you allow that schizophrenia exists and can be dangerous, how are we to deal with dangerous schizophreniacs? You don’t seem to understand. In most states they can hold you for 72 hours apon which you appear before a judge who releases you or keeps you there. In NY state they can hold you for 60 days and THEN you see a judge who releases you or keeps you there. THAT is not due process and is a violation of the right to liberty. We are granted a speedy trial by law and 60 days before you can even see a judge is a clear violation of that. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/129 "2013-06-10T18:58:39Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m not **matt357** to whom you addressed that question, but why not deal with dangerous schizzies exactly the way we deal with dangerous NON-schizzies? For everyone else, you get locked up and charged because of something THAT YOU DO, not something that some self-important pompous shrink-professional thinks you MIGHT do. I wasn’t saying that all schizophrenics are dangerous, or that all schizophrenics should be locked up, so I’m sorry if it came off that way. > [@AHunter3](#): > > I don’t know where you stand on the whole issue of free will versus determinism but our legal system is based on personal responsibility and unless you propose to change it for everyone and start over with different assumptions, why not treat us the same way? Being crazy should not be grounds for locking us up. > > If you want to try to prove one of us to be fully mentally incompetent (i.e., doesn’t know who the president is, can’t explain how to deal with having taken the wrong flight or the wrong bus and ending up in a strange town, isn’t oriented to date and time and place, can’t remember shit, can’t manage finances, etc etc) that’s a different story. That’s the story I mean to address here. Clearly, some who are mentally ill should be commited. As there is no blood test or similar for whose these people might be, a process of short-term commitment for evaluation, subject to due process of law, is a viable way to address this problem. If you reject, as **matt357** seems to, even these short-term emergency commitments, then you’re rejecting that anyone might ever be involuntarily commited. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/130 "2013-06-10T19:10:51Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > You don’t seem to understand. In most states they can hold you for 72 hours apon which you appear before a judge who releases you or keeps you there. In NY state they can hold you for 60 days and THEN you see a judge who releases you or keeps you there. THAT is not due process and is a violation of the right to liberty. We are granted a speedy trial by law and 60 days before you can even see a judge is a clear violation of that. According to the “Rights of Inpatients in New York State Office of Mental Health Psychiatric Centers” excerpt I posted earlier: > [@](#): > > If you are involuntarily admitted on a medical certificate, or converted to that status, you may be kept in a psychiatric center for up to 60 days. If you - or a relative, friend or the Mental Hygiene Legal Service - believe that you do not need to be involuntarily hospitalized you or any of the others may apply for a court hearing on this matter. You can go before a judge before the 60 days are up. Also, 60 days does not preclude a speedy trial. Many criminal defendents are held for longer than that (having not made bail, or denied bail) before their trials begin. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/131 "2013-06-10T19:12:56Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > In NY state they can hold you for 60 days and THEN you see a judge who releases you or keeps you there. THAT is not due process and is a violation of the right to liberty. Actually due process is exactly what it is by definition. > [@](#): > > We are granted a speedy trial by law These people aren’t being charged with a crime and won’t be put on trial, so that’s not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/132 "2013-06-10T19:13:18Z")
It seems like it’s always a quick trip, in these threads, from “the methods of identifying mental illness are dubious and invalid” to “involuntary commitment/compulsory treatment are wrong.” I wonder why it seems impossible to sustain a discussion of the former? Certainly the latter is an important topic, but it is quite distinct. ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/133 "2013-06-10T19:19:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Actually due process is exactly what it is by definition. > > These people aren’t being charged with a crime and won’t be put on trial, so that’s not an issue. Considering most people who are even CONVICTED of a crime including some felonys (chris brown comes to mind) serve far less than 60 days I would disagree with that. At the end of the day your locking them up and taking away their rights with little or no proof. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/134 "2013-06-10T19:21:11Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Considering most people who are even CONVICTED of a crime including some felonys (chris brown comes to mind) serve far less than 60 days I would disagree with that. Again, you’re ignoring the difference between prison and a psychiatric facility. And yes, I know we’re not funding or supporting those the way we should. > [@](#): > > At the end of the day your locking them up and taking away their rights with little or no proof. No proof of what? We’re discussing mental health and not crimes. What kind of proof do you think should be required? ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/135 "2013-06-10T19:32:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again, you’re ignoring the difference between prison and a psychiatric facility. And yes, I know we’re not funding or supporting those the way we should. > > No proof of what? We’re discussing mental health and not crimes. What kind of proof do you think should be required? A psychiatric facility is the same or in some ways even worse than prison. In prison your allowed to go outside every day for a hour, get commissary, not forced to take medication ect. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/136 "2013-06-10T19:34:30Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > A psychiatric facility is the same or in some ways even worse than prison. In prison your allowed to go outside every day for a hour, get commissary, not forced to take medication ect. Have you ever been to a psychiatric facility? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/137 "2013-06-10T19:38:08Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > In prison your allowed to go outside every day for a hour, get commissary, not forced to take medication ect. I don’t suppose you’d like to give us a cite on patients behind confined to their rooms 24 hours a day. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/138 "2013-06-10T19:40:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Have you ever been to a psychiatric facility? I’m guessing not, but he might have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night though… ---
**Author:** ![nickak2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea666f/32.png) [@nickak2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nickak2003)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/139 "2013-06-10T19:40:26Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > A psychiatric facility is the same or in some ways even worse than prison. In prison your allowed to go outside every day for a hour, get commissary, not forced to take medication ect. First off, you can refuse to take your medication for any reason. Second, depending on the facility, you may get out side time each day, certainly a lot allow outside smoke breaks. Thirdly, there are a lot of different kinds and levels of facility that have each different rules, you can’t lump them all together and dismiss them as all being worse than prison, that’s just absurd. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522/140 "2013-06-10T19:42:19Z")
My girlfriend would self medicate with alcohol and drugs when she went into her manic states. She would be a danger to herself and others. More than once I had to lie and tell them she was suicidal to get a 72 hour lock up. It really wasn’t a lie as she would walk out in traffic, or if she could get keys to a car she would take it and in most cases wreck it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-is-exaggerated/660522.md?page=8)