Then you must not heard of something called Depression,or Manic depression (bipolar), or anxiety disorder
No, it only proves that safeguards don’t always work. There will always be failures in any system. Airplanes crash. Corrupt cops shake down small businesses for protection money. San Diego’s mayor admits to committing sexual harassment. Do we shut down the airlines, dismiss all policemen, and revert our city governments to mob rule?
You want perfection? Buddy, wrong species!
I think putting someone in a mental ward should be similar to a arrest where a high standard of proof is required to do so. Someone claiming a person said they were going to kill themselves (or similar hearsay) when they deny it should not be enough. It is to easy to abuse that by claiming a enemy of yours said that . Similar “hearsay evidence” would be laughed off in a criminal complaint and should be as well by doctors. In addition if they are of reasonably sound mind they should be able to be “bailed out” like jail does or should face a judge and court hearing that very day. (many cities even have night court)
As I said, you’re using a really shitten analogy. The standard to incarcerate someone in a mental health facility (against their will) is already much, much, much higher than the standard for a policeman to arrest you. MUCH!
Simple “hearsay evidence” is not enough to put someone away. (I can speak from personal experience in California: we had much more than “hearsay” evidence. We had eyewitness evidence, and physical evidence. Not enough.)
I’m sorry, but you simply and very obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.
So, Matt, one example is not a proof.
Also, I’m pretty sure that Dr. Szasz wrote a whole book about his disbelief that Schizophrenia was a real disease. He thought it was a social construct, as I recall (haven’t read it in decades. The book was called The Myth of Mental Illness. I’m really confused by your leaning on him as a support for your case, and that you fundamentally disagree with him. Have you actually read the book?
PS I’m licensed to write legal holds in the county I work in. I’ve worked with the chronically, and acutely, mentally ill for decades.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about.
Truman Burbank: How much do requirements vary from state to state? My experience is minimal, and only in CA. Since you do have actual meaningful expertise in the subject, could you maybe put forward a couple of hypothetical cases, one that could lead to putting someone in a mental health care facility against their will, and another that wouldn’t? A kind of “bracket the issue” pair of hypotheticals?
(I often find it’s helpful to have end-points of this sort in a discussion. “If you roll through a stop sign, and nobody is endangered or harmed, you will probably get a fine, but not to go prison. If you drive into oncoming traffic, hit several other cars, refuse to stop, and then try to run from police pursuit, you will probably go to prison.”)
Maybe something similar in the field in question might help enlighten, not only the OP, but some of the rest of us also?
I’m also in Calif, and don’t know much about differences in requirments from state to state, but would presume they are roughly equivalent.
- Someone found in the street, naked, screaming incoherently, holding a gas can and lighter, saying he has to ‘burn the bugs out of his system’. Danger to self, gravely disabled (by psychosis). That person meets criteria for a hold, no problem.
- Someone’s daughter calls about a family member: I think they are crazy. Team goes to the house, the subject is well-kempt, in no apparent distress, oriented to person/place/time, reports it was probably his daughter who called, she’s been very concerned because the pt hasn’t been preparing himself for the immanent rapture. He answers questions logically and coherently. He appears to be able to meet his basic needs. No hold seems indicated. (He could, of course, be more disturbed than he appears but able to present a good front).
The basic criteria in Ca: Is this person a danger to self, others, or gravely disabled as a result of mental problems? Note this means you can be ‘crazy’ but not holdable, eg Shirley MacLane.
In Ca you have to be a licensed mental health professional, or policeman, (maybe a few other folks, I forget), and you get retrained for 4 hours every 2 years, and have to past a test every 2 yrs as well.
Thank’ee! That helps make the idea clear.
As with so very many things, there is a big, hairy, scary, gray area in between, but I think the examples serve to bracket them. The big key, in contrast to what the OP has said, is that there really are protections, and simple hearsay is not going to get anybody locked away in Bedlam. There are screening processes at several steps along the pathway.
(Sarah Palin is crazy… Michelle Bachmann is crazy… Orly Taitz is crazy… That they aren’t locked away gives extremely ample evidence that the protections are more than adequate!)
Simple hearsay is enough to get someone locked up, I don’t know about California but in NY it certainly is. When I visited my uncle in the psych ward there were tons of people there who seemed completely normal who said they were only there because “so and so” (usually a relative with a grudge) said “this” or “that” like threats of self harm or just “strange behavior” that they denied strongly. If you used that gas can analogy he said earlier the mental wards would be almost empty. Psychiatric wards in a private hospital (not a state hospital where people are put for years) are a business designed to make money just like other areas of the hospital are and they would have a lot of empty beds if the “Someone found in the street, naked, screaming incoherently, holding a gas can and lighter, saying he has to ‘burn the bugs out of his system’.” was the only kind of people they put in there. Alot of people put in there are only mildly mentally ill or not mentally ill at all, the doctors exaggerate on their reports in order to put people in their to keep the beds full. They then try to hold them until their insurance runs out then let them go. (wether they are better by that point or not)
That’s quite an extensive, systemic belief system you have there. Of course, it is predicated at taking psych pts at their word, and for many, if not most of them, a lack of insight will likely be central to why they were involuntarily committed in the first place. Lucky for us you could discern on the basis of casual conversation the exact degree of their mental illness (or lack of it). Whatever it is that you do for a living, I wonder if I know so much more about it than you do, even though you’ve likely had vastly more training and experience in your field that I have… :rolleyes:
Yeah, this thread has certainly reached a tipping point of vapidity. The guy with no formal training, no credentials, no license, and no objective cites, is able to refute the opinion of the guy who has all of the above and is a professional in the field.
Next he’s gonna tell me how to defragment a database. I’m keen to learn, given that I’ve been doing it professionally for twenty years…
I’d think Scotch tape, or Gorilla glue! How hard could it be?
Clinical depression is incurable. The symptoms can be relieved but not cured. There are several kinds of depression. If you are very, very sad, that’s not necessarily clinical depression. You can cure yourself of that, but the sadness lasts only a few days anyway.
To the best of my knowledge, clinical depression involves a problem with the brain inself. It’s not a matter of will power or personal fault. You can’t will yourself into different seratonin levels, for example.
There are times when a psychologist or psychiatrist can help you without medication. I guess that depends on what kind of depression you have.
I was first diagnosed with depression over fifty years ago. Most of the depression is light; it responds well to medication. But there have been times when I have almost all of the symptoms of a stronger, heavier depression. I may quit talking, withdraw into myself, break out in crying and cold sweats, sleep too much and gain weight. (Some people sleep very little and lose weight.) I become easily confused and can’t concentrate.
In the early sixties I had round after round of electro shock therapy. I didn’t have the symptoms anymore (for a while), but I couldn’t remember much of anything that had happened to me for months before or even years.
At another hospital a few years later, I was treated with medicine, but it worked only a little.
It wasn’t until prozac became available that was I finally able to function at my best. I felt like the real me.
I felt very down last night watching the last part of the Ken Burns production on Lewis and Clark. Lewis suffered from what would now be called clinical depression. Despite his adventureous success and becoming a national hero, he committed suicide after several bouts of depression. He seemed to be in a state of confusion when he died. I can’t help but wonder what modern advances would have help him.
My great-aunt had depression. She set fire to herself and burned to death. Do you think she could have cured herself with a better attitude?
These are only anecdotal examples. If you have read much in psychiatry, you should know that clinical depression is incurable, but most can get relief for the symptoms for at least a while.
If you cured yourself of depression, it wasn’t clinical depression.
… yes and no. It’s a feedback loop, outside events and your perception of them affect serotonin levels. You make it sound like it’s a roll of the dice – some people have lots of serotonin and some people have a little and that’s just the way life is. I think that elides rather a lot.
It all depends on how much you wish to be free of depression, it can be cured.
Your mind or mental faculties are not open to disease, after all what is the mind?
But first you need to believe it can be cured. I had it once but not any more.
I would sit and cry, shake and have anxiety attacks, migraine headaches so bad I couldn’t get out of bed. They are all gone.
Were you diagnosed by a medical professional as being clinically depressed?
Oh, of course. They’re depressed because they forgot to wish they weren’t depressed.
I do believe there are some people who use depression and/or mental illness as an excuse not to do anything. It’s easy for some folks to say they are depressed, and to not do a damn thing all day, in other words, they are lazy. I have witnessed firsthand a wealthy woman who did nothing all day (claimed she was depressed), and yet the housekeeper that worked for her seemed much happier than the wealthy woman. I believe the housekeeper was happier because she was busy. It is no disgrace to do dishes, laundry, etc. I do indeed realize there are many people who do have depression, which is serious, and probably requires medication, and I was NOT referring to the people who do have true depression above. Depression and/or mental illness is tricky, because most people feel differently most days. It is not a “One Size Fits All”.