# Mental illness of a sitting US President **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 24, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799 "2012-04-24T12:28:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/1 "2012-04-24T12:28:17Z")
Some weeks ago, there was a widely reported incident with a JetBlue Pilot who out of the blue (so to speak) went berserk: > **[JetBlue Freak Out: Passenger Had To Put Panicked Pilot 'In A Choke Hold'](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/03/28/149520818/jetblue-freak-out-passenger-had-to-put-panicked-pilot-in-a-choke-hold)** > > "I'm just happy I was able to get him down to the floor," says David Gonzalez, about helping to subdue the captain, who suffered some sort of breakdown and was ranting about bombs and trying to break back into the cockpit, passengers say. So there basically is a well respected, highly professional and seemingly healthy man in the best years of his life suddenly suffering from a bout of mental illness. I wonder what would be the course of events if this kind of thing happened to a sitting US President. Let’s say the President, at a televised public event, suddenly started to act erratically, i. e. shouting, knocking over his lectern, assaulting bystanders, screaming that a nuclear war is about to start and then maybe returning to the Oval Office and locking himself in (if the latter is at all possible). This President surly would have to be evaluated by medical professionals and possibly declared unfit for duty. But what exactly would be done in this situation? Who would have to initiate the process? To make things even more complicated, this President would seemingly recover and refuse any medical treatment, claiming that everything is all right. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/2 "2012-04-24T12:46:59Z")
25th Amendment, Section 4: > [@](#): > > Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. In other words, if the Vice President and the Cabinet are convinced the President is non compos mentis, they can depose him from office. ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/3 "2012-04-24T14:36:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 25th Amendment, Section 4: > … > In other words, if the Vice President and the Cabinet are convinced the President is non compos mentis, they can depose him from office. See also “Every season of the television series _ **24** _.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/4 "2012-04-24T14:47:17Z")
A Cecil column that is still not part of the on-line archive reports that in the waning days of the Nixon presidency, Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger ordered theater commanders to report to him any “unusual” orders they received from President Niixon. Cecil’s comment was a tongue-in-cheek speculation that Schlesinger was afraid Nixon might torch the planet in a fit of pique. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/5 "2012-04-24T14:58:50Z")
The closest thing was the illness of Woodrow Wilson in 1919 when he was campaigning for the United States joining the League of Nations. There have been all sorts of rumours over the years on just how well he was, how much his wife Edith was running the government (she didn’t even know who the presidential candidates were in 1912 which was shortly before she met him) and how much Vice President Marshall was kept away (who would have done something about the lack of good 5 cent cigar if he had the chance). > **[Woodrow Wilson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_wilson#Incapacity)** > > Thomas Woodrow Wilson (December 28, 1856 – February 3, 1924) was an American politician and academic who served as the 28th president of the United States from 1913 to 1921. A member of the Democratic Party, Wilson served as the president of Princeton University and as the governor of New Jersey before winning the 1912 presidential election. As president, Wilson changed the nation's economic policies and led the United States into World War I in 1917. He was the leading architect of the Lea... William Safire once wrote a novel about a President where the 25th amendment hqd to be used and along the way pointed out some problems the amendment didn’t answer. ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/6 "2012-04-24T15:09:05Z")
Weren’t there some rumblings about this sort of thing for the final year or two or Reagan’s presidency when the Alzheimer’s rumors were starting? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/7 "2012-04-24T15:13:06Z")
The bigger worry would be a President who, because of an undiagnosed mental disorder, a series of small strokes, brain trauma or whatever, doesn’t suddenly lose it but instead suffers a slowly progressive impairment. Who’s going to be able to see when exactlky he’s gone from “normal” to impaired? What will the doctors use as a baseline to judge impairment? Will the public side with the Pres or with the VP and Cabinet? On review, take what **Sarabellum** said but make it just a little more apparent to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/8 "2012-04-24T15:20:34Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > See also “Every season of the television series _ **24** _.” > > 😉 Not at all. Just seasons 4 and 6. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/9 "2012-04-24T15:26:57Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > What will the doctors use as a baseline to judge impairment? That’s the easy question to answer. Given the number of and detailed nature of the President’s physicals, I’m sure his doctors will have extensive baseline data to work from. It’s the _other_ questions that will bring down the country. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/10 "2012-04-24T15:38:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In other words, if the Vice President and the Cabinet are convinced the President is non compos mentis, they can depose him from office. The amendment also provides that the President can then certify that no disability exists. If the VP and cabinet continue to disagree, the dispute goes to Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/11 "2012-04-24T15:59:06Z")
The real problems of course start when the incumbent President fights his removal from office (indeed a very 24ish scenario). The JetBlue pilot is in prison because he endangered a flight which is a crime. But had he been an ordinary executive in the airline, let’s say: in accounting, and freaked out in a staff meeting, he would seek medical help and could even have a chance to continue working in his job. Nobody will, of course, let that pilot anywhere near a cockpit for the rest of his life. By the same token, had a President had a complete breakdown, nobody would be comfortable with him still being in office, even if he, according to his own testimony, has fully recovered. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/12 "2012-04-24T16:09:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 25th Amendment, Section 4: > > In other words, if the Vice President and the Cabinet are convinced the President is non compos mentis, they can depose him from office. How long would this process take, though? A lot of damage can be done in a short amount of time-if the Prez wigs out tomorrow, will he be out of office before the end of the day? Week? Month? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/13 "2012-04-24T16:10:52Z")
Another fictional depictation of this situation is _Night of Camp David_ by Fletcher Knebel (the same author who wrote _Seven Days in May_ about an attempted military coup in the United States). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/14 "2012-04-24T16:43:03Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > …William Safire once wrote a novel about a President where the 25th amendment hqd to be used and along the way pointed out some problems the amendment didn’t answer. Yes. That was _Full Disclosure_, published in 1978. It’s a pretty good political thriller. The problem there isn’t that the President goes nuts, but rather that he’s blinded in an assassination attempt while visiting the Soviet Union. He returns to the U.S. and tries to keep doing his job but can’t quite pull it off. He wins in the Cabinet vote to remove him from office, but only narrowly, and then decides to resign. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/15 "2012-04-24T18:16:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How long would this process take, though? A lot of damage can be done in a short amount of time-if the Prez wigs out tomorrow, will he be out of office before the end of the day? Week? Month? It could probably be done within hours, if they really want to. As for damage… well, if the President is clearly crazy, I’d like to think that people would simply ignore his orders, knowing that any crime implied by such an action would immediately be pardoned by his successor. Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. Government isn’t staffed by automatons. ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/16 "2012-04-24T20:10:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Another fictional depictation of this situation is _Night of Camp David_ by Fletcher Knebel (the same author who wrote _Seven Days in May_ about an attempted military coup in the United States). The intertesting thing about _Night of Camp David_ was that it was written in 1965, and the 25th Amendment was ratified in 1967. At the time Knebel wrote _Camp David_ there was no procedure for dealing with an incapacitated President! ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/17 "2012-04-24T22:27:12Z")
There was a Supreme Court, John Pickering, whom people thought had mental problems, that the Jefferson Administration had impeached and convicted in 1803. Apparently it was a raging debate because he hadn’t committed treason or other high crimes. The Jefferson adminstration and its “Democratic-Republicans” weren’t happy that the departing John Adams and the Federalists in Congress had put a lot of their members in judgeships right before Jefferson took over/ Successful in this, they then tried it with another judge, Samuel chase, who wasn’t insane and this put a damper on Presidents trying to remove judges for partisan reasons.[John Pickering (judge) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pickering_(judge)) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/18 "2012-04-24T22:43:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A Cecil column that is still not part of the on-line archive reports that in the waning days of the Nixon presidency, Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger ordered theater commanders to report to him any “unusual” orders they received from President Niixon. Cecil’s comment was a tongue-in-cheek speculation that Schlesinger was afraid Nixon might torch the planet in a fit of pique. I recall an SNL skit based on somebody’s tell-all about Nixon’s last night in the WH – at one point Kissinger says, “Yes, Mr. President. Excuse me, I have to go instruct the Joint Chiefs of Staff to disregard all presidential orders.” Nixon does not appear to notice that. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/19 "2012-04-24T23:16:32Z")
I always enjoyed the west wing, president Barlett was a great character. But i always thought that he really should have resigned/not run for a second term when it became clear… SPOILER FOR A 10 YEAR OLD SHOW BUT JUST IN CASE …that he had MS and could as they explicity point out in the show “Have an attack and be mentally impaired without any external sign of this”. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799/20 "2012-04-24T23:17:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A Cecil column that is still not part of the on-line archive reports that in the waning days of the Nixon presidency, Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger ordered theater commanders to report to him any “unusual” orders they received from President Niixon. Cecil’s comment was a tongue-in-cheek speculation that Schlesinger was afraid Nixon might torch the planet in a fit of pique. There have been several accounts that Nixon, with Kissinger’s connivance, frequently made threats of some form of Armageddon in their negotiations with the Vietnamese and the Russians, and in the Middle East. Maybe better to say that Kissinger made these threats, claiming that Nixon was “crazy” and might do anything. Nixon was in on it. I have to wonder just how closely held that little scheme was. They were both really secretive, and it’s entirely plausible Schlesinger heard about Kissinger’s claims and threats from third parties, didn’t know it was a negotiating strategy, and was genuinely concerned about Nixon’s sanity and stability. Then again, since other stories have come out about Nixon lecturing the paintings of former presidents during his finals days, that’s a pretty good indicator he was going off his rocker. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mental-illness-of-a-sitting-us-president/619799.md?page=2)