# Mentalist stage acts: how do they do it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** theater-stage-dance\ **Created:** [August 18, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107 "2021-08-18T17:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/102 "2021-08-27T01:16:07Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > Every time a thread like this comes up, I make the same point: those who know won’t tell, and those who tell don’t know. For real, though, do you find that that remains true in the modern era? My impression is that the code, such as it is, is far more relaxed today than it was fifty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/103 "2021-08-27T03:38:52Z")
Let me fix that for you **ianzin** - Those who know _for sure_ won’t tell. Those who tell may well know, given that the internet, and other factors, has made keeping open secrets impossible. But those that know won’t ever confirm that those who tell are correct because that preserves the mystery. And **ianzin** , if those who know won’t tell, and those that tell don’t know, how did you manage to write a [book](https://www.booktopia.com.au/the-full-facts-book-of-cold-reading-ian-rowland/book/9780955847660.html) (and I quote from the blurb) that “systematically describes a wide range of techniques that enable those who give readings to make seemingly accurate statements to a complete stranger.” Hmmmm? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/104 "2021-08-27T09:39:32Z")
Maybe he doesn’t know? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/105 "2021-08-27T12:41:26Z")
Maybe he doesn’t consider cold reading to be a “magic act/trick”. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/106 "2021-08-27T14:10:40Z")
There is a you tube video (which I can’t access right now at work) with a clip from the Johnny Carson show with Uri Geller. Carson started out as a magician and was interested in this type of stuff. When he asked Geller on the show, he wanted to show him up (Johnny could be a jerk, which wasn’t his public persona). So he didn’t let Geller touch any of the props, or provide any of them, and asked Uri to say what was in them. Uri obviously couldn’t do it, and said he wasn’t “feeling it” if I recall correctly and looked like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/107 "2021-08-27T14:49:42Z")
James Randi had a hand in that. He knew how Geller did his tricks and advised Carson how to set up. Geller was presented with silverware on a table and didn’t get the opportunity to use his own. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/108 "2021-08-27T15:49:55Z")
And Carson’s staff made sure that no one from Geller’s team got anywhere near the props. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/109 "2021-08-27T18:11:53Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > James Randi had a hand in that. He knew how Geller did his tricks… Did he? Does that mean that he didn’t tell? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/110 "2021-08-27T18:59:10Z")
When it comes to people like Geller it doesn’t matter, because he doesn’t claim to do tricks (or at least he didn’t at that time). Exposing a con artist is _always_ appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/111 "2021-08-27T19:19:51Z")
The point is, the line between “performer” and “con artist” can be blurry. Like, Darren Brown doesn’t claim that his abilities are paranormal, but he does claim to have abilities that, in fact, neither he nor any human actually has. And a lot of his tricks aren’t even stage magic: They’re just camera special effects, that wouldn’t work at all on stage, so no question of the ethics of revealing stage magic should even apply. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/112 "2021-08-27T20:44:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m more inclined to say that I consider camera trickery to be a separate category of “magic” (or whatever). You can do pretty much anything with cameras these days without any stagecraft whatsoever. I consider it cheating (sorry, Darren…). The first time I saw a “magician” on TV as a little kid, I remember thinking “What’s the point? On television, they could cut a chunk out where he switched the props or cards or led the elephant offstage.” What works well on TV for me is street magic, or other tricks where there’s an audience (with people of integrity, like Penn & Teller). Any camera tricks or _“Don’t let on to the people at home that I just peeked at all the cards. We’ll edit that out before it airs.”_ and P&T and their audience would erupt in boos. (Well, Teller would glare…) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/113 "2021-08-27T21:14:57Z")
> [@digs](#): > > What works well on TV for me is street magic, or other tricks where there’s an audience (with people of integrity, like Penn & Teller). Any camera tricks or _“Don’t let on to the people at home that I just peeked at all the cards. We’ll edit that out before it airs.”_ and P&T and their audience would erupt in boos. (Well, Teller would glare…) Reminds me of something I saw P&T do on TV – one of the occasions on which they share “how it’s done”. Outdoors, on a city street. A big rig truck is parked, and Teller is lying under it. Penn is across the street, and he has a partner (somebody from SNL, IIRC) on the sidewalk on the far side of the truck. Penn asks the partner if there’s anything unusual about the truck; partner says “nope”. Truck then rolls over Teller. The reveal: the truck’s tires are made of foam rubber, and there’s a few tons of counterweight hanging off the side (the far-side, away from the camera) of the truck, that take the weight off Teller. Penn says to the partner: “but you said…”…partner says: “I lied”. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/114 "2021-08-27T22:57:10Z")
Murray saw how the trick worked - and he told! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HDbWlAMXc0U/hqdefault.jpg "Little Kid Ruins Magician's Card Trick on Live TV") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbWlAMXc0U) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/115 "2021-08-28T00:21:01Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > The reveal: the truck’s tires are made of foam rubber, and there’s a few tons of counterweight hanging off the side (the far-side, away from the camera) of the truck, that take the weight off Teller. Penn says to the partner: “but you said…”…partner says: “I lied”. Victoria Jackson was the “partner”, IIRC. Before she went full-on batshit. But that’s exactly the trick I thought of immediately too. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/116 "2021-08-28T06:33:39Z")
I’ve seen Penn and Teller also do the video reveal. It got me thinking about the silliest way to do the ‘reveal after trick went wrong’. I would love to do the trick early on at a stag party (play the trick on the prospective groom, of course). When it fails, look embarassed and slink away. Then when the stripper arrives and does her act, have her reveal the 3 of clubs tattooed somewhere ‘appropriate’. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/117 "2021-08-28T08:45:18Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > (Johnny could be a jerk, which wasn’t his public persona). I don’t know if he could be a jerk or not but I am firmly of the opinion that what he did to Uri Geller wasn’t evidence of him being a jerk. Geller was being a prime jerk by pretending that he actually had special powers. Making him look a fool was what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/118 "2021-08-28T09:54:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The point is, the line between “performer” and “con artist” can be blurry. Like, Darren Brown doesn’t claim that his abilities are paranormal, but he does claim to have abilities that, in fact, neither he nor any human actually has. And a lot of his tricks aren’t even stage magic: They’re just camera special effects, that wouldn’t work at all on stage, so no question of the ethics of revealing stage magic should even apply. I would argue that more is necessary to qualify as a con artist. You need to make these claims and use them outside of the world of entertainment. While Brown may lie about how he does his tricks, he still continues to say that they’re just tricks. He has admitted to not knowing any NLP or special psychology beyond that of magic. I personally do take issue with the lying: don’t tell people you’re going to reveal a trick and then make up bullshit. Don’t mislead people into thinking pseudoscience is real. But I don’t consider him a con artist, unlike Gellar, who did claim he had powers and that his was demonstrating them. He did defraud people by pretending to be psychic to accomplish something for them (like finding missing people) and he did claim he would teach people to have the same powers he did. I agree the line is fuzzy, but I think I can see who is on which side. Brown is way too close to that line for me to like his stuff, but he’s not crossed it. I just don’t like people who lie and spread false information. Give me Penn and Teller’s magic style any day. Oh, and I’d argue there is never any inherent obligation to not reveal a magic trick. There is just the obligation to keep your promise not to share a secret, if you were told. If you figured it out? It’s fine to tell anyone who wants to listen. (Just don’t go around spoiling it for people who don’t want to know.) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/119 "2021-08-28T11:50:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Did he? Does that mean that he didn’t tell? He explains here. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/JXv3TvB4LNI/hqdefault.jpg "James Randi debunks Uri Geller") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXv3TvB4LNI&t=334) ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/120 "2021-08-28T13:25:22Z")
There isn’t really a ‘code’ among magicians, if we’re using that term in the way most non-magicians use it when this sort of point comes up. Magicians dislike the gratuitous exposure or revelation of methods because (a) it spoils the fun for a lot of people, (b) it’s spoiling creative artistic work, like daubing a moustache on The Mona Lisa, and (c) the secrets and methods aren’t mine or any other individual’s to give away; they were devised by hundreds of clever people over a long period of time and passed down through generations. I don’t own them so they aren’t mine to just give away in a little YouTube video, which disrespects all the people involving in creating that method, refining it and passing it down from one gen to the next. However, magicians have never minded explaining and teaching the methods to people with a serious, genuine interest who want to learn, to practise, perform and entertain. We discuss and share the methods as openly as, say, a chef teaches a novice how to cook. I don’t think this situation has changed a great deal in the last 50 years. However, with today’s technology, there are more ways and opportunities to teach and, as a corollary, more ways and opportunities to just give away the secrets gratuitously. I know you might think I’m veering into ‘No true Scotsman’ territory here, but I don’t think it’s anyone with a real interest that’s exposing secrets online. It’s just youngsters who have found out how a trick’s done, one way or another, and think it will be fun, or get some views and hits, to give the secret away in a video. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107/121 "2021-08-28T13:27:41Z")
I can’t hear ‘tone’ in a written question but it looks to me as if that’s written like a ‘gotcha’ question. I could be wrong. First of all, cold reading isn’t a magic trick. Secondly, what magicians oppose is the free and gratuitous exposure or revelation of methods. If people have a serious interest, magicians don’t mind sharing the secrets at all. One way to assess seriousness of intent is this: is someone willing to pay for the know-how? There are lots of magic dealers, catering to working professionals and keen amateurs alike, that sell just tricks, books and DVDs (or downloads) all the time. The secrets are openly on offer for anyone willing to purchase them. And people have to buy my book to read it (unless of course they’re doing it the naughty way). So, cold reading isn’t a magic trick but even if it were, people have to pay to read it. When I say, ‘those who know don’t tell and those who tell don’t know’, I was referring to posts in discussions like this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mentalist-stage-acts-how-do-they-do-it/949107.md?page=7)