# 'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438 "2017-07-03T15:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/21 "2017-07-03T17:05:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I also think the OP does the country a disservice by perpetuating this myth of Red State and Blue State America. I was just repeating the common political parlance of the day, but yes, there’s certainly a lot more nuance to it than classifying whole states as red vs blue. You could just as easily substitute “conservatives” and “liberals” or “Republicans” and “Democrats” in the OP and make all the same points, I think. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I live in the SF Bay Area which, in the parlance of the OP, is a dark Blue spot in the Bluest of Blue States, and we have Independence Day celebrations in every city and town. You’ll see as much red, white and blue bunting as anywhere. Besides, it sells things. I thought I covered that pretty well with “Many in blue-state-America will likely do many of those same things …” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/22 "2017-07-03T17:05:58Z")
I’m reminded of a scene at the end of _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_. Indy has found the chamber that holds the Holy Grail. The knight who guards it says to him “ask yourself, why do you seek the Cup of Christ? Is it for His glory, or for yours?” Why is it now mandatory for politicians to wear flag pins on their lapels; is it to make the flag look better, or themselves? If patriotism, and an understanding of the country’s history, can inspire someone to be better than they’ve been, and to make the country better than it was, that’s great. And I believe it is that way for a great many people. It’s the “we’re the greatest country on earth, we don’t have to care about anyone else, we can do what we want” type of things that are a problem. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Many in blue-state-America will likely do many of those same things, but I get a sense that there’s an undercurrent or attitude from some that the whole thing is a bit … _unseemly_. Yeah, consider that paragon of liberalism, Boston; the 4th of July passes there with hardly a notice. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/23 "2017-07-03T17:47:18Z")
Soldiers might like healthcare and therapy instead of the “thank you for your service” ritual or everyone putting decals on their cars. Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. If you have pride, have it for something you’ve done, instead of the happenstance of your origin of birth, your skin color, or your belonging to a group that you didn’t help build or maintain. Be proud that you can play an instrument, knit doilies, or shoot three pointers. I find the most visibly patriotic Americans are recent immigrants. I’m under the impression that in many places patriotism is something for locals, not outsiders. So for the purpose of keeping American a multi-ethnic yet single polity then patriotism may be useful, if you’re into maintaining world spanning hegemonies. Some people prefer large states to be broken up, so from their POV this patriotism would be bad. July 4th is like Christmas. There’s a reason for the season, but it’s not that relevant. It’s an excuse to party and inject some cash into the economy. If you want to have some fun, ask the patriots to name the three branches of government, or to name their representative. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/24 "2017-07-03T17:54:30Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If you want to have some fun, ask the patriots to name the three branches of government, or to name their representative. > [@](#): > > [… 26 percent of people can name the three branches of government (executive, legislative and judicial)](http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-knowledge-of-the-branches-of-government-is-declining/) I’m confident that the number of people that can name their representative is likewise depressing. Most people don’t care about the details of policy or politics. I don’t believe that’s a uniquely American phenomenon either. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/25 "2017-07-03T18:00:53Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Soldiers might like healthcare and therapy instead of the “thank you for your service” ritual or everyone putting decals on their cars. Speaking of which … > [@](#): > > [Sgy Michael Verardo, who lost an arm and a leg while serving with the US army in Afghanistan in 2010, says he was failed by the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). He had to wait 57 days to get his prosthetic leg fixed and three and a half years for adaptations to his home. But then came Donald Trump. > > “Thank you, President Trump and [Veterans Affairs] Secretary [David] Shulkin for ensuring that we are not forgotten and that we will receive the care we need and deserve,” Verardo said at the White House recently. > > Trump, signing an act to protect VA whistleblowers, revelled in the moment …](['Your worst nightmare: a successful Donald Trump presidency' | Donald Trump | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/03/donald-trump-winning-oval-office-twitter)) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/26 "2017-07-03T18:05:49Z")
Here’s a proposed test to see if your patriotism is good or not: 1. Are you keeping an eye out for situations where your fellow Americans are being treated unfairly, or 2. Are you looking at a great number of your fellow Americans and thinking that they’re not _real_ Americans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/27 "2017-07-03T18:09:53Z")
I love the country I was born in very much. I love the country we are trying to create even more. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/28 "2017-07-03T18:26:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I was just repeating the common political parlance of the day, but yes, there’s certainly a lot more nuance to it than classifying whole states as red vs blue. You could just as easily substitute “conservatives” and “liberals” or “Republicans” and “Democrats” in the OP and make all the same points, I think. > > I thought I covered that pretty well with “Many in blue-state-America will likely do many of those same things …” The divide, if there is one, is between urban and rural America within every state, not between different states. Go to the Central Valley in CA, and you might as well be in rural Oklahoma. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Here’s a proposed test to see if your patriotism is good or not: > > 1. Are you keeping an eye out for situations where your fellow Americans are being treated unfairly, or > > 2. Are you looking at a great number of your fellow Americans and thinking that they’re not real Americans. I look out and see that no real Americans are being treated unfairly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/29 "2017-07-03T18:35:22Z")
I find expressions of national pride gauche and distasteful. Most simply, there are people whom this country treats poorly, by design or by accident. Waving my flag in their faces, and expecting some kind of solidarity or agreement about the “greatness” of the nation is to be willfully blind to their suffering, and the nation’s part in it. Throw obsession with the armed forces and “traditional” white middle-class pageantry as a formula for the right way to celebrate America into the mix, and I’ll skip the 4th, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/30 "2017-07-03T18:44:43Z")
Let me begin by noting that I disagree with the OP’s characterization of liberal v. conservative America. As a kid growing up in central Florida (where rednecks roam proudly), the 4th of July meant BBQs, beer for the parents, and fireworks. Sure, the cups and plates likely are red, white, and blue. But it’s not like everybody gathered around to read the Declaration of Independence; the larger political context was never discussed. And, in fact, the first time I ever experienced a parade was in Gainesville, a (largely liberal) college town. More directly to the question being raised, I see “love of country” both like loving a sports team and like loving a family. When you love a sports team, you root for them to win; as long as they are victorious, you overlook the fact that the Tight End is a wife-beater, or that the Quarterback has been to drug rehab. What matters is being able to acquire false machismo by living vicariously through the accomplishments of others. And that’s a hollow, immature “fandom” that invites the worst sort of behavior which we often associate with nationalism - “love it or leave it”, “'Merica, fuck yeah!” Then there is the love of family. This is the affection that includes “tough love” - you care enough to be aware of, and committed to fix, the problems that exist. Sure, you are proud when family excels, but you also are worried about their capacity to make mistakes and make a concerted effort to help them help themselves. This is the type of wise, observant love that can be associated with patriotism - a pride in one’s country, based on one’s involvement in its success. Of course, my favorite thought on patriotism is a quote I’ve seen attributed to Oscar Wilde: “Patriotism is the belief that one country is better than all the others because you were born in it.” For all of the patriots who firmly believe that their country is the greatest in the world, I wonder how many have lived (let alone visited) overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/31 "2017-07-03T19:28:54Z")
I read the OP and instantly came to the conclusion that the Bush-era tactic of questioning the patriotism of people who think or act slightly differently than the conservative who is speaking has not left us. The tactic didn’t die, it just hibernated for a few years. I’ll just ask one question: probably not a lot of liberals brought American flags to the pro-women or pro-science marches in DC. But then there’s the whacko Bundy family that is out breaking laws and wrapping themselves in the flag at every turn. Which group is the real patriots? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/32 "2017-07-03T19:49:04Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Patriotism is a good thing. Nationalism is patriotism’s evil twin. How are these two distinguishable in your view? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/33 "2017-07-03T21:36:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How are these two distinguishable in your view? > **[Opinion | Nationalism vs. patriotism](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/nationalism-vs-patriotism/2014/02/23/9129d43a-9afc-11e3-8112-52fdf646027b_story.html)** > > George F. Will’s statement \[“Ukraine: A crisis that matters,” op-ed, Feb. 20\] that “nationalism is a necessary, although insufficient impulse sustaining liberty” needs clarifying. Nationalism must be... > [@](#): > > Patriotism is fundamental to liberty because pride in one’s nation-state, and a willingness to defend it if necessary, is the basis of national independence. Patriotism is the courage of national self-determination. > > By contrast, nationalism is patriotism transformed into a sentiment of superiority and aggression toward other countries. Nationalism is the poisonous idea that one’s country is superior to somebody else’s. Nationalism is intrinsically a cause of war and imperialism. Yes, but even that superiority has different levels, as Hegel can tell us there was/is a reason to be nationalistic: [QUOTE] Nationalism, for instance, has had many terrible manifestations even in Hegel’s day, but Hegel’s move was to ask what underlying good idea or important need might be hiding within the bloody history of nationalism. He proposed that it’s the need for people to feel proud of where they come from, to identify with something beyond merely their own achievements, and to anchor their identities beyond the ego. [/QUOTE] Of course, Hegel could not control the changing definitions and Patriotism has been pointed out as having differences with Nationalism. > **[Difference Between Nationalism and Patriotism](http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/)** > > Nationalism vs Patriotism Nationalism and patriotism both show the relationship of an individual towards his or her nation. The two are often confused and frequently believed to mean the same thing. However, there is a > [@](#): > > Nationalism means to give more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage. Patriotism pertains to the love for a nation, with more emphasis on values and beliefs. > > When talking about nationalism and patriotism, one cannot avoid the famous quotation by George Orwell, who said that nationalism is ‘the worst enemy of peace’. According to him, nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life. These concepts show that patriotism is passive by nature and nationalism can be a little aggressive. > > Patriotism is based on affection and nationalism is rooted in rivalry and resentment. One can say that nationalism is militant by nature and patriotism is based on peace. > > Most nationalists assume that their country is better than any other, whereas patriots believe that their country is one of the best and can be improved in many ways. Patriots tend to believe in friendly relations with other countries while some nationalists don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/34 "2017-07-03T22:24:33Z")
The idea that being liberal means you can’t be patriotic is a horrible lie perpetrated by right wing media. I’m very liberal, I love this country, and I will be celebrating the 4th. I also am comfortable in criticizing America when I see fit. The whole idea that criticism is unpatriotic (which is conveniently forgotten when a Democrat is president) is wrongheaded and harmful to the country. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/35 "2017-07-03T23:22:11Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m reminded of a scene at the end of _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_. Indy has found the chamber that holds the Holy Grail. The knight who guards it says to him “ask yourself, why do you seek the Cup of Christ? Is it for His glory, or for yours?” Why is it now mandatory for politicians to wear flag pins on their lapels; is it to make the flag look better, or themselves? > > If patriotism, and an understanding of the country’s history, can inspire someone to be better than they’ve been, and to make the country better than it was, that’s great. And I believe it is that way for a great many people. It’s the “we’re the greatest country on earth, we don’t have to care about anyone else, we can do what we want” type of things that are a problem. > > Yeah, consider that paragon of liberalism, Boston; the 4th of July passes there with hardly a notice. And no one EVER goes to the Macy’s Fireworks display in New York City. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/36 "2017-07-03T23:43:22Z")
Things seem different now. Back in the 70’s in my small home town, being patriotic meant having pride in your community, acknowledging the sacrifices of veterans but mostly, having a sense of ownership in the stakes of the country at large. Being a democracy it was everyone’s duty to do a civic good to the betterment of your countrymen. In that light, patriotism is a positive. However, the negative side of patriotism is tribalism, where people with similar features and beliefs exile those they don’t feel fit in. They attack people for being different than what they consider their core beliefs, and we other citizens enjoy their constitutionally sanctioned freedoms, they call them unamerican, deviants, etc. Hopefully more Americans will embrace the positive aspects of patriotism, than the negative ones. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/37 "2017-07-03T23:54:45Z")
Its mostly Monkeys R’ Us, isn’t it? Self, family, tribe, clan, nation. Few years back, how many people died to advance the cause of the two-headed eagle of Serbia? A different perspective from someone who lives _here_, where we can reasonably lay claim to prominence. Same cheap wine, different bottle. What are we proudest of, Seal Team 6 or the moon landing? Our cowardice in accepting injustice or our courage in opposing it? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/38 "2017-07-04T00:22:26Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > And no one EVER goes to the Macy’s Fireworks display in New York City. The Boston Pops play a concert at a band shell along the river, ending with the _1812 Overture_ with real artillery, and followed by fireworks. The show starts at 8:00, people start arriving at 6:00. 6:00 a.m. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/39 "2017-07-04T01:00:37Z")
Ellucidator wrote: “Its mostly Monkeys R’ Us, isn’t it? Self, family, tribe, clan, nation.” Funny how much condemnation people get when they carry it to the _next_levels: Species. Life itself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/40 "2017-07-04T01:51:46Z")
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