# 'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438 "2017-07-03T15:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/41 "2017-07-04T04:10:58Z")
\*“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” Samuel Johnson 4-7-1775 \* Among other things, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/42 "2017-07-04T04:41:17Z")
It really comes down more to small town vs. big city – blue states are blue mostly because a larger percentage of their residents live in the big cities. I’m sure there are small towns in California and New York that are deep red. And there I would say the city residents just celebrate differently. They don’t have parades on Main Street because they don’t have a Main Street. They don’t have backyard cookouts because they don’t have backyards. Instead they celebrate by going to some of the big concerts or fireworks displays or watching them at parties in bars restaurants and private homes. Judging by the sounds outside my window, illicit fireworks are also common. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/43 "2017-07-04T06:15:45Z")
Oddly, I don’t feel very patriotic anymore. I’ve traced it back to a Tuesday in early November, last year. But then, since I have the audacity to criticize His Highness the God-Emperor, according to Kellyanne I’m unpatriotic anyway. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/44 "2017-07-04T07:19:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I love the country I was born in very much. I love the country we are trying to create even more. Laudable, commendable. Just comes unglued when trying to determine who the “we” is. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/45 "2017-07-04T12:31:38Z")
I don’t think the U.S. is perfect but I am very patriotic. Just look at all the things Americans have invented in the past 70 years let alone the last 250. It created most of the modern world both directly and indirectly. Even foreign born innovators felt compelled to move here to realize their dreams. I think that is something special. All of the hand wringing becomes a little tedious. The U.S. is still the most powerful country that has ever existed and has a massive amount of global influence for better or worse. There is no reason not to celebrate it once a year with goodwill displays like fireworks and barbecues (real BBQ is completely American after all). I was listening to a historian on a liberal talk show on Sirius/XM radio a few days ago. He made the point that liberals/progressives are fundamentally incapable of being happy with what they have already and that resonated with me. You can’t be happy if you are always nitpicking everything you think is wrong with your country. That probably can’t be fixed permanently but you can take one day out of the year and be thankful for everything you are very fortunate to have. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/46 "2017-07-04T13:01:04Z")
Fireworks are cool, grilled food is great. Taking immense pride in the geographic location where you were pushed out of your mother is silly. Reciting the pledge is something that belongs in North Korea, not in a free country. A healthy attitude toward your country is looking for ways to make it better, not declaring that it is the best that ever was or ever will be and that the only thing we need to do is kick out those who don’t look like us or worship like us. Patriotic correctness has run amuck, now we’re expected to give daily praise, glory, and honor to (bat your eyelashes and gush as you say) _the troops._ Want to honor the troops? Get them the healthcare and education benefits they need. Having a visible orgasm every time the troops are mentioned doesn’t do them squat. Personally, I’ll take pride in the US again when we get a lying, immature, ignorant, bigoted, treasonous, cowardly sexual predator out of the White House. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/47 "2017-07-04T13:17:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Personally, I’ll take pride in the US again when we get a lying, immature, ignorant, bigoted, treasonous, cowardly sexual predator out of the White House. I’ll raise a glass to that. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/48 "2017-07-04T14:11:04Z")
As a kid, I was raised to eschew any symbols of patriotism. Once I came home from a field trip with a miniature American flag, and my mother made me get rid of it “because that’s not what we’re about in this house.” I was taught to view “flag wavers” as suspect. I remember my parents and me exchanging looks when my aunt started belting out “God Bless America!” the time she dragged us to her Midwestern megachurch’s July 4th service. We talked some serious shit about her afterwards. As I’ve developed my own outlook on things, I have come to see that patriotism, like any other emotion, can’t be helped. People will naturally feel connected to the land that they’ve always known and the people of that land. And people can feel love for that land and still recognize how shitty it is. Flying a flag isn’t an endorsement of everything a country does, just like a waving a cross doesn’t mean a person is in support of everything Christians do. But like anything, patriotism can go too far. If you can’t find a single thing to criticize a country for, you’ve got a problem. I also think if you ever play the “more patriotic than thou” game, then you need to check yourself. As long as people pay their taxes and follow the law, they are sufficiently patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/49 "2017-07-04T14:16:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Here’s a proposed test to see if your patriotism is good or not: > > 1. Are you keeping an eye out for situations where your fellow Americans are being treated unfairly, or > > 2. Are you looking at a great number of your fellow Americans and thinking that they’re not _real_ Americans. When I see this response: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I look out and see that no real Americans are being treated unfairly. 😃 Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see the funny-I see a direct example of what **Bryan Elkers** is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/50 "2017-07-04T14:22:45Z")
Whoosh! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/51 "2017-07-04T14:26:15Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Whoosh! I’m hoping so…but I see that attitude too fucking often, on the internet and in real life, to automatically give the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/52 "2017-07-04T14:31:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I see this response: > Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see the funny-I see a direct example of what **Bryan Elkers** is talking about. Without the smiley, I’d agree, but I gather John Mace was being facetious even if there are a lot of Americans who would say the same thing and be completely serious about it. I suppose I could have phrased my original comment as: 1. I’ll stand by and defend fellow Americans, even if they have views different from mine. vs 1. I’ll abandon, oppose and vilify my fellow Americans if they have views different from mine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/53 "2017-07-04T14:49:24Z")
I apologize if I was wrong about his intent…but the term “Real American” bothers me because of those most likely to use it, and what far too many of them believes it to mean. [This Washington Post article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/what-it-takes-to-be-a-real-american-according-to-real-americans/?utm_term=.f2ecfee285c1) about the Public Religion Research Institute Survey concerning what being “truly American” means is rather revealing: Must speak English-89% Believe in God(not just be of some religion)-69% Being born here-58% Being Christian-53% There is a separate breakdown for Republicans vs. Democrats When it comes to Religion: Believing in God-Republicans 81%, Democrats 63% Being Christian-Republican 69%, Democrats 46% ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/54 "2017-07-04T14:52:41Z")
[Soundtrack](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6R7bCSUhjI) for the thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/55 "2017-07-04T15:17:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I apologize if I was wrong about his intent…but the term “Real American” bothers me because of those most likely to use it, and what far too many of them believes it to mean. Hillary Clinton famously said that the irredeemable deplorables “are not America”, which maybe fits what **Bryan Ekers** was saying about (a) vilifying fellow Americans who have different views and (b) thinking that they’re not real Americans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/56 "2017-07-04T15:19:46Z")
Yeah, that’s kinda fucked up, isn’t it? Sure dodged the bullet that time, didn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/57 "2017-07-04T15:32:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I apologize if I was wrong about his intent…but the term “Real American” bothers me because of those most likely to use it, and what far too many of them believes it to mean. No worries. I thought it was obvious. And the “real Americans” was directly copied from **Ekers** ’ post, btw. It was not something I initiated. Happy Fourth of July (but only to _real_ Americans, of course). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/58 "2017-07-04T15:47:43Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Laudable, commendable. > Just comes unglued when trying to determine who the “we” is. Sez who? If you need a definition, well, ok, then…_you_ need a definition. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/59 "2017-07-04T17:34:27Z")
**HurricaneDitka** - I’m going to keep this brief because I have people coming over for a Fourth of July party. You know what virtue signaling is, right? Making a big production out of you patriotism is virtue signalling. It’s hard to take it as an honest display of good feelings. This is especially true in recent years, when, for example, Conservatives got genuinely angry because Obama forgot to where a flag pin that one time, and they turned it into a whole barrel of bullshit about how it was proof that Obama hates America. It’s not true that the bigger the flag pin, the bigger one’s patriotism. People who make ostentatious displays of their patriotism come across as phony, just like people who make ostentatious displays of their religion, or their charity, or their brains, or their moral rectitude. Americans are, and should be, deeply skeptical about ostentatious displays, for whatever cause, because display is different than substance. Personally, I like the Fourth of July, but after five straight days of random fireworks at any hour, I’m way over it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/60 "2017-07-04T17:40:02Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > All of the hand wringing becomes a little tedious. The U.S. is still the most powerful country that has ever existed and has a massive amount of global influence for better or worse. There is no reason not to celebrate it once a year with goodwill displays like fireworks and barbecues (real BBQ is completely American after all). I can think of a good reason - why not celebrate those fine things you talk about in your first paragraph, instead? There are many good and fine things to associate with the US, and many very bad things. Why take a day to celebrate the US, in toto, thereby celebrating the bad too, when it’s possible to celebrate just the good? I don’t think it’ll affect the taste of the BBQ. 😉 > [@](#): > > I was listening to a historian on a liberal talk show on Sirius/XM radio a few days ago. He made the point that liberals/progressives are fundamentally incapable of being happy with what they have already and that resonated with me. You can’t be happy if you are always nitpicking everything you think is wrong with your country. That probably can’t be fixed permanently but you can take one day out of the year and be thankful for everything you are very fortunate to have. The idea that liberals/progressives are fundamentally incapable of being happy with what they have is an idea that resonated with you? That seems silly - I mean, the reverse of that would be to say that conservatives/non-progressives are fundamentally and incapable of not being happy with everything in their life no matter how bad, something I’d hope you’d call a ridiculous extreme. You absolutely can be happy if you are pointing out flaws (“nitpicking everything you think is wrong” is a big poisoning of the well, there). Happy liberals/progressives exist, for a start. Think of yourself, when you’ve noticed something wrong; there’s happiness in being able to talk to others and finding out they’ve noticed the same thing, and happiness in working together to try and fix it, not to mention happiness from solving such problems. If all that happened when people succeeded - or failed, for that matter - was seeing the next roadblock or problem up ahead and never being pleased with what’s been done, well, if nothing else, I don’t think there would be as many of those American inventors you mentioned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=4)