# 'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438 "2017-07-03T15:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/61 "2017-07-04T17:40:07Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Just look at all the things Americans have invented in the past 70 years let alone the last 250. It created most of the modern world both directly and indirectly. What does that have to do with you, though? What do you think about white nationalists who are proud of their heritage and say what you did, except replacing “America” with “white people”? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/62 "2017-07-04T17:45:42Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > You know what virtue signaling is, right? Making a big production out of you patriotism is virtue signalling. It’s hard to take it as an honest display of good feelings. I don’t think it’s fair to label big ostentatious displays as necessarily “virtue signalling”. Some people just like a lot of flags and to make a big deal out of the day. Some people feel that it’s only appropriate to make a big deal given what they want to celebrate. And hey, I’m sure some people have a big party and put on some music and invite all the friends around because it’s fun to do all those things. I’m not a huge fan of patriotism. And I’m sure there are people who are coming at it from a self-promoting standpoint. But just because someone makes a big display doesn’t mean they’re not doing so simply because that’s honestly how they feel. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/63 "2017-07-04T17:47:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hillary Clinton famously said that the irredeemable deplorables “are not America”, which maybe fits what **Bryan Ekers** was saying about (a) vilifying fellow Americans who have different views and (b) thinking that they’re not real Americans. I’d want to review her speech for the entire context, but I agree it was a mistake for her to present the case as Americans against other “deplorable” Americans. She might have tried “good ideas versus bad ideas”, but who the hell knows, really? Roughly guessing: Group A: 40% of Americans who will never bother to vote. Group B: 20% who absolutely will vote for the Democrat. Group C: 5% who may or may not vote, but if they do, it’ll probably be for the Democrat. Group D: 20% who absolutely will vote for the Republican. Group E: 5% who may or may not vote, but if they do, it’ll probably be for the Republican. Group F: The remaining 10% may or may not vote, but if they do, they’ll be unpredictable. If Clinton’s speech could fire up all of Group C and some of Group F, she might’ve won even if all of Group D felt insulted and most of Group E felt insulted but also soured on the political process and skipped the election. A gentler choice of phrasing would probably be quickly forgotten - no risk, but also no reward. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/64 "2017-07-04T17:50:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Tomorrow is the 4th of July. In red-state-America, there will be BBQs and parades… God, what a terrible start to a Great Debates OP. Poisoning the discussion in the first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/65 "2017-07-04T18:00:13Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t think it’s fair to label big ostentatious displays as necessarily “virtue signalling”. Some people just like a lot of flags and to make a big deal out of the day. Some people feel that it’s only appropriate to make a big deal given what they want to celebrate. And hey, I’m sure some people have a big party and put on some music and invite all the friends around because it’s fun to do all those things. > > I’m not a huge fan of patriotism. And I’m sure there are people who are coming at it from a self-promoting standpoint. But just because someone makes a big display doesn’t mean they’re not doing so simply because that’s honestly how they feel. It’s true that some people just love parties and decorating. But those people are also not choosing their decorations as honest statements about their feelings. They’re making a display for their guests (and their neighbors). The whole premise of the OP is that Red States will be making a big display out of their True Love for America which strikes HurricaneDitka as “wholesome and good”, whereas the Blue States will look on all that as “unseemly”. My point is that assuming an ostentatious display is being done for wholesome and honest reasons is probably misguided. In fact, ostentatious displays in general for other causes tend to be seen as phony and suspicious. It’s not that blue states dislike Patriotism. It’s that we are (justifiably) suspicious of people who make a big public show out of it. We’ve seen first hand how “patriotism” can be used as virtue signaling (and that’s entirely what the Flag Pin bruhaha is about.) We’ve also seen these smae Patriots make a big stupid deal out of other public displays (War on Christmas). There’s simply no reason to assume that big public Fourth of July extravagenzas are intended to be genuine displays of honest patriotism when they look exactly like phony displays by used car salesman. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/66 "2017-07-04T18:11:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > God, what a terrible start to a Great Debates OP. Poisoning the discussion in the first sentence. What’s worse, you think? If he doesn’t really believe that, or if he does? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/67 "2017-07-04T18:46:33Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > **HurricaneDitka** - I’m going to keep this brief because I have people coming over for a Fourth of July party. > > You know what virtue signaling is, right? Making a big production out of you patriotism is virtue signalling. It’s hard to take it as an honest display of good feelings. > > This is especially true in recent years, when, for example, Conservatives got genuinely angry because Obama forgot to where a flag pin that one time, and they turned it into a whole barrel of bullshit about how it was proof that Obama hates America. > > It’s not true that the bigger the flag pin, the bigger one’s patriotism. People who make ostentatious displays of their patriotism come across as phony, just like people who make ostentatious displays of their religion, or their charity, or their brains, or their moral rectitude. > > Americans are, and should be, deeply skeptical about ostentatious displays, for whatever cause, because display is different than substance. > > Personally, I like the Fourth of July, but after five straight days of random fireworks at any hour, I’m way over it. I tried explaining it to my mother like this. I love my family. I am grateful that I have the family that I have. I think they’re awesome. But I’m not going to constantly run up and down the street proclaiming that my family is better than the other families on the block. I’m not going to spend my days looking for ways in which my family is better than the other families in the neighborhood. I’m not going to feel that their achievements make my family is less great. And if one of the neighbors makes an awesome modification to their house, I’m not going to see it as some sort of effort to “best” us. I might even learn from it. And it doesn’t diminish my family in the least. If I felt that way, at best, that would reflect some incredible insecurity. At worst, it’s psychotic. And frankly, the implications in the OP make me angry. I think about how awesome it is to be a citizen of this country pretty much everyday, not just once or twice year. It’s about freedom and equality- which we are guaranteed to a greater extent than even other Western democracies. But freedom to do only what everyone else thinks you should be doing isn’t freedom at all. And “all men are created equal” is really more of an aspiration than a declaration, and i believe in working to help my country achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/68 "2017-07-04T18:57:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hillary Clinton famously said that the irredeemable deplorables “are not America”, which maybe fits what **Bryan Ekers** was saying about (a) vilifying fellow Americans who have different views and (b) thinking that they’re not real Americans. I’m confused on your point here. Is it that if a person says a lot of racist and sexist stuff, we ought not question their commitment to American ideals? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/69 "2017-07-04T19:02:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t think the U.S. is perfect but I am very patriotic. Just look at all the things Americans have invented in the past 70 years let alone the last 250. It created most of the modern world both directly and indirectly. Even foreign born innovators felt compelled to move here to realize their dreams. I think that is something special. A lot of them moved here to escape repressive regimes and the US was the safest place to go at the time. Also, a lot of those foreign-born people completed their innovations before they even moved here. Not to mention the numerous inventors/innovators who have never lived here. > [@](#): > > All of the hand wringing becomes a little tedious. The U.S. is still the most powerful country that has ever existed and has a massive amount of global influence for better or worse. There is no reason not to celebrate it once a year with goodwill displays like fireworks and barbecues (real BBQ is completely American after all). Because no one ever thought of cooking over an open flame, smoking meats, or basting before? This entire post comes across as very America-centric. > [@](#): > > I was listening to a historian on a liberal talk show on Sirius/XM radio a few days ago. He made the point that liberals/progressives are fundamentally incapable of being happy with what they have already and that resonated with me. You can’t be happy if you are always nitpicking everything you think is wrong with your country. That probably can’t be fixed permanently but you can take one day out of the year and be thankful for everything you are very fortunate to have. Historian and psychoanalyst, apparently. Bertrand Freud… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/70 "2017-07-04T19:07:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Historian and psychoanalyst, apparently. Bertrand Freud… Look-He paraphrased an anonymous guest on an unknown show. What more evidence and authority do you need? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/71 "2017-07-04T19:09:00Z")
> [@Ann Hedonia](#): > > I think about how awesome it is to be a citizen of this country pretty much everyday, not once a year. Me too. We also need to remember that July 4th doesn’t have the same meaning for all citizens. Like, for some African Americans, [June 19th](http://www.juneteenth.com/history.htm) makes the most sense for celebrating liberty and freedom since the 4th of July doesn’t actually commemorate these things. It only commemorates the founding of an institution that talked a good game about these things, but took a helluva long time before it practiced them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/72 "2017-07-04T19:12:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What’s worse, you think? If he doesn’t really believe that, or if he does? The latter. One person is one thing, but ALL conservatives thinking liberals aren’t patriotic would represent one of the most profoundly dangerous misapprehensions I can imagine in a nation’s politics. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/73 "2017-07-04T19:17:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Look-He paraphrased an anonymous guest on an unknown show. What more evidence and authority do you need? :dubious: I can try to figure out what show it was. It was only a few days ago. You will have to forgive me for not remembering the name of someone I casually listened to on my way to work but that is what he said and the hosts agreed that he had a point. I do truly believe that all of the hand-wringing gets annoying. The 4th of July has nothing to do with true nationalism. It is about celebrating your culture, blowing stuff up and cooking on the grill with your friends and family just like Halloween isn’t an endorsement of paganism and Memorial Day doesn’t mean we are happy that soldiers on the other sides died. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t mean that you think that all other countries suck. I am also in favor of the Chinese New Year, Oktoberfest, St. Patrick’s Day and Cinco De Mayo as well. We need more fun holidays that bring people together and celebrate lots of different things, not fewer. I am surprised some of you don’t develop vision problems from all of the navel gazing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/74 "2017-07-04T19:21:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m confused on your point here. Is it that if a person says a lot of racist and sexist stuff, we ought not question their commitment to American ideals? I’m, ah, confused by your confusion. **Bryan Ekers** offered up a test: > [@](#): > > Here’s a proposed test to see if your patriotism is good or not: > > 1. Are you keeping an eye out for situations where your fellow Americans are being treated unfairly, or > > 2. Are you looking at a great number of your fellow Americans and thinking that they’re not _real_ Americans. He added that it was a question of whether you stand by and defend fellow Americans who have different views, or whether you oppose and vilify them. And so I figured I’d amiably shrug, and I thought about applying the test – and I’m not seeing how that equates to saying we ought not question someone’s commitment to stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/75 "2017-07-04T19:34:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m, ah, confused by your confusion. > > **Bryan Ekers** offered up a test: > > He added that it was a question of whether you stand by and defend fellow Americans who have different views, or whether you oppose and vilify them. And so I figured I’d amiably shrug, and I thought about applying the test – and I’m not seeing how that equates to saying we ought not question someone’s commitment to stuff. But he talked about keeping an eye out for Americans who are treated unfairly, with the implication that we should generally defend such people from unfair treatment. I have a hard time seeing how racists and misogynists, which Clinton labeled “deplorable,” are being treated unfairly if they spout their vile nonsense and then others criticize them. You seem to imply that such people are being picked on. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/76 "2017-07-04T19:39:31Z")
I’ve always felt that the people who don’t vote were displaying an inherent trust in those of us who do. I’m wondering now if there’s been an uptick in new registrations since 11/9. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/77 "2017-07-04T19:45:46Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It’s true that some people just love parties and decorating. But those people are also not choosing their decorations as honest statements about their feelings. They’re making a display for their guests (and their neighbors). I’d disagree. I think it’s very possible to do all that not with the intent to put on a display for their guests, akin to a peacock unfurling their tail, but just because they like doing that and think it’s worth doing. > [@](#): > > There’s simply no reason to assume that big public Fourth of July extravagenzas are intended to be genuine displays of honest patriotism when they look exactly like phony displays by used car salesman. Sure there is - used car salesmen are doing so as part of their job. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/78 "2017-07-04T19:46:34Z")
☹ > [@Ravenman](#): > > I have a hard time seeing how racists and misogynists, which Clinton labeled “deplorable,” are being treated unfairly if they spout their vile nonsense and then others criticize them. You seem to imply that such people are being picked on. See, the question isn’t whether they’re “being picked on” in general; as per the test, the question is whether folks think they’re “not real Americans” in particular. As far as I can tell, we can criticize 'em in a dozen different ways and pass that test; but if we criticize 'em in one _specific_ way, we fail the test right then and there. That said, you sort of have a point: as far as I can tell, _by the terms of the test_ we fail if we vilify them for their views – but we can still pass as long as we vilify people for their sex or their race? Which may mean we should jettison the test? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/79 "2017-07-04T19:51:36Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I do truly believe that all of the hand-wringing gets annoying. The 4th of July has nothing to do with true nationalism. It is about celebrating your culture, blowing stuff up and cooking on the grill with your friends and family just like Halloween isn’t an endorsement of paganism and Memorial Day doesn’t mean we are happy that soldiers on the other sides died. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Sure there is - there’s the alternative option to just celebrate the good stuff and not the bad, ready and available to be taken, and it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/80 "2017-07-04T22:43:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > > > Tomorrow is the 4th of July. In red-state-America, there will be BBQs and parades, … > > God, what a \*\*terrible \*\*start to a Great Debates OP. Poisoning the discussion in the first sentence. Bolding mine. You misspelled “typical”. ETA: to be clear, I think \*\*HurricaneDitka \*\*has done a nice job overall of explaining his POV across all his posts. Even though the opening line is a bit … polemic. Call it “the hook” to get us reading. It worked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=5)