# 'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438 "2017-07-03T15:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/81 "2017-07-04T23:01:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > ☹ > > See, the question isn’t whether they’re “being picked on” in general; as per the test, the question is whether folks think they’re “not real Americans” in particular. > > As far as I can tell, we can criticize 'em in a dozen different ways and pass that test; but if we criticize 'em in one _specific_ way, we fail the test right then and there. > > That said, you sort of have a point: as far as I can tell, _by the terms of the test_ we fail if we vilify them for their views – but we can still pass as long as we vilify people for their sex or their race? Which may mean we should jettison the test? The test has a weakness in that in some circumstances, it can be totally contradictory. Let’s say a great number of Americans have some intolerant behavior - maybe they think blue eyed people are inferior or whatnot. A reasonable person may be concerned by the persecution of blue eyed people by these jerks. But by the terms of the test, if a sufficient number of these bigots exist in America, the test directs that the reasonable person not hold the bigots in contempt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/82 "2017-07-05T01:10:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Me too. > > We also need to remember that July 4th doesn’t have the same meaning for all citizens. Like, for some African Americans, [June 19th](http://www.juneteenth.com/history.htm) makes the most sense for celebrating liberty and freedom since the 4th of July doesn’t actually commemorate these things. It only commemorates the founding of an institution that talked a good game about these things, but took a helluva long time before it practiced them. You know, I hadn’t really thought about it before, but now that I do, it seems absolutely crazy that we don’t have some sort of national holiday to celebrate the ending of slavery in the US. That is easily one of the biggest milestones in our history, and we should celebrate it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/83 "2017-07-05T11:00:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Tomorrow is the 4th of July. In red-state-America, there will be BBQs and parades, flag ceremonies by local Boy Scout troops, many Pledges of Allegiance will be recited, perhaps some singing of the Star-Spangled Banner, That fireworks show on television with all the patriotic songs came to us from deep red NYC. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/84 "2017-07-05T11:49:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m confident that the number of people that can name their representative is likewise depressing. Most people don’t care about the details of policy or politics. I don’t believe that’s a uniquely American phenomenon either. But it does go to the point that for a large part of the population “pride in America” is, shall we say, merely tribal. The principle behind how come there IS this nation and what makes it worth celebrating is lost behind “celebrate it, or else”. Or are we to say, the US of A is _not_ the embodiment of a different notion of building a nation, but rather just yet another large tribe? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/85 "2017-07-05T13:22:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know, I hadn’t really thought about it before, but now that I do, it seems absolutely crazy that we don’t have some sort of national holiday to celebrate the ending of slavery in the US. That is easily one of the biggest milestones in our history, and we should celebrate it. It isn’t that crazy if one considers the context of how the Union tried to repair itself post-war. Grant wouldn’t even let his soldiers cheer after Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia; Lincoln kept insisting on reconciliation. At the time the general desire was to make up, stitch things back together, and try to go on living together as a single nation-state; a celebration of the defeat o f the Confederacy was not seen as being a positive step forward. Maybe it should have been, I dunno, but that’s hindsight. One can certainly appreciate the North’s fervent wish to return to a state of brotherhood again, and the remarkable degree of charity and forgiveness they granted the rebels. Additionally, the ending of slavery lacks a really specific date to pin it to; it’s sort of the Emancipation Proclamation and sort of the adoption of the 13th Amendment and sort of the end of the Civil War which itself has no clear date of conclusion. I mean, I think you’re right, it SHOULD be a national holiday. I’m just proposing reasons why it isn’t that made sense at the time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/86 "2017-07-05T13:32:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It isn’t that crazy if one considers the context of how the Union tried to repair itself post-war. Grant wouldn’t even let his soldiers cheer after Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia; Lincoln kept insisting on reconciliation. At the time the general desire was to make up, stitch things back together, and try to go on living together as a single nation-state; a celebration of the defeat o f the Confederacy was not seen as being a positive step forward. Maybe it should have been, I dunno, but that’s hindsight. One can certainly appreciate the North’s fervent wish to return to a state of brotherhood again, and the remarkable degree of charity and forgiveness they granted the rebels. > > Additionally, the ending of slavery lacks a really specific date to pin it to; it’s sort of the Emancipation Proclamation and sort of the adoption of the 13th Amendment and sort of the end of the Civil War which itself has no clear date of conclusion. > > I mean, I think you’re right, it SHOULD be a national holiday. I’m just proposing reasons why it isn’t that made sense at the time. Yes, I understand why it didn’t make sense at the time. But holidays are rarely set right at the time of the event, and we’ve had ~150 years to think about it. That’s a long time. Independence Day itself was celebrated here and there by cities/the states, but wasn’t recognized as a federal holiday until 1870. For the end of slavery, I suggest the day the 13th amendment was ratified. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/87 "2017-07-05T13:35:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Additionally, the ending of slavery lacks a really specific date to pin it to; it’s sort of the Emancipation Proclamation and sort of the adoption of the 13th Amendment and sort of the end of the Civil War which itself has no clear date of conclusion. Juneteenth seems like a good enough date. > **[Juneteenth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juneteenth)** > > Juneteenth, officially Juneteenth National Independence Day, is a federal holiday in the United States. It is celebrated annually on June 19 to commemorate the ending of slavery in the United States. The holiday's name is a portmanteau of the words "June" and "nineteenth", as it was on June 19, 1865, when Major General Gordon Granger ordered the final enforcement of the Emancipation Proclamation in Texas at the end of the American Civil War. In the Civil War period, slavery came to an end i E... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/88 "2017-07-05T14:20:53Z")
ISTM to be partly a matter of emphasis. Is it patriotic to have an occasion where we _only_ talk about America’s good points? It appears that some people don’t think so. I love my wife, although she has some flaws. If I take her out to dinner on our anniversary, I don’t say things like “overall you are a great person, but I still need to mention that you aren’t perfect.” That doesn’t mean I don’t see that she has flaws, or that I will beat someone up who suggests that she has flaws, or that I don’t love my wife. It means there is a time and a place for everything. Do we need to mention that Martin Luther King Jr. was a plagiarist and a wife-beater every January 15th? Do we need to mention Islamic terrorism every time someone mentions Ramadan? Whether there are more red state Americans who can’t say anything bad about America vs. blue staters who can’t say anything good, I don’t know. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/89 "2017-07-05T14:44:18Z")
De Gaulle would tell you that patriotism is an emotion or state of mind born of love for one’s country, while nationalism is born of the hatred of every other. As for me, I’m not sure there’s all that much difference between them ; and that while we’re somewhat evolutionarily conditioned to be tribal and form in-group/out-groups it’s on the whole a negative trait to our species. In a word : borders are poison. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/90 "2017-07-05T14:52:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > De Gaulle would tell you that patriotism is an emotion or state of mind born of love for one’s country, while nationalism is born of the hatred of every other. > As for me, I’m not sure there’s all that much difference between them ; and that while we’re somewhat evolutionarily conditioned to be tribal and form in-group/out-groups it’s on the whole a negative trait to our species. In a word : borders are poison. ONEWORLD government! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/91 "2017-07-05T14:53:21Z")
On the whole, I think American patriotism is a good thing. It expresses itself in some utterly bizarre ways - like the Pledge, or more specifically making schoolchildren recite it every day - but generally pride comes with awareness of one’s place in the world. I spent most of my formative years in the UK, where there is a general sense that We Aren’t Really Great Anymore. Perhaps that’s an inevitable result of being a country that once punched orders of magnitude above its weight (at the height of the Empire, Britain supplied 30% of the world’s manufactured goods) and now only punches a little bit above its weight. But in any event, it wasn’t good. There is plenty for Britons to take pride in, but in most surveys people can’t think of anything other than the NHS or the monarchy. This in a country that comfortably leads the G20 in output of peer-reviewed studies per capita. I wonder what US attitudes will look like in a hundred years when someone else has taken over as the world’s economic and military superpower. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/92 "2017-07-05T15:03:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know, I hadn’t really thought about it before, but now that I do, it seems absolutely crazy that we don’t have some sort of national holiday to celebrate the ending of slavery in the US. That is easily one of the biggest milestones in our history, and we should celebrate it. I’m sure you could have found a Juneteenth celebration somewhere near you, if you had been interested. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/93 "2017-07-05T15:04:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > That fireworks show on television with all the patriotic songs came to us from deep red NYC. Depending on which channel you’re watching. The one in Boston is our favorite, but the one in DC is well-done too. Where’s the best redneck fireworks show? As for progressives never being happy, that isn’t quite spot-on. We are always seeing things we can do better at, and our spirit of patriotism demands that we try our best to make our country better. The view that this is already the best we can do, and any changes are likely for the worse and so must be opposed, is so damn depressing that I wonder how anyone can hold it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/94 "2017-07-05T15:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure you could have found a Juneteenth celebration somewhere near you, if you had been interested. He probably could. But it’s not the same as offering it national recognition, especially in a country where we have holidays celebrating public officeholders, the labor movement, and a guy who got lost and never even saw the country anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/95 "2017-07-05T15:30:43Z")
There’s a fair argument that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day covers the entire civil rights struggle, of which the end of slavery was not the end. Nor have we seen the end yet, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/96 "2017-07-05T16:56:48Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > “Let’s get real” is not a good way to begin a point of [ideology.](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/ideology) You have to defend your ideology in some way, not just say it’s a fact. Lol nearly every statement in this thread is an undefended “point of ideology”. Your second sentence being one example. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/97 "2017-07-05T16:59:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As for progressives never being happy, that isn’t quite spot-on. We are always seeing things we can do better at, and our spirit of patriotism demands that we try our best to make our country better. Just to expand the thought, yes, Independence Day \*does \*make me happy to be an American - it’s an occasion to recognize the struggles and achievements of so many people who did their damnedest to make my country a better place, and to be inspired and draw encouragement from their examples to keep doing our damnedest too. It isn’t “nit-picking” at all, not when there is so, so much to do, so much suffering by so many people, so much still wrong, that we still need to work on. Rather, to decide that we’ve done enough and this is as far as we can go just seems lazy, selfish, and contemptuous, not patriotic under any definition other than superficial jingoism. That make any sense to ya? I damn well hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/98 "2017-07-05T17:10:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > On the whole, I think American patriotism is a good thing. It expresses itself in some utterly bizarre ways - like the Pledge, or more specifically making schoolchildren recite it every day - but generally pride comes with awareness of one’s place in the world. > > … > > I wonder what US attitudes will look like in a hundred years when someone else has taken over as the world’s economic and military superpower. Maybe in 100 years we can stop forcing the kids to pledge allegiance on a daily basis. That would make me proud. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/99 "2017-07-05T17:17:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Maybe in 100 years we can stop forcing the kids to pledge allegiance on a daily basis. That would make me proud. Indeed. Me, too. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/100 "2017-07-05T17:23:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As for progressives never being happy, that isn’t quite spot-on. We are always seeing things we can do better at, and our spirit of patriotism demands that we try our best to make our country better. It’s rather odd, in any case, that American conservatives would complain about liberals finding flaws with their country when they’re the ones whose preferred Presidential candidate says everything about America is “a disaster” and that the country is no longer great. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=6)