# 'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438 "2017-07-03T15:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/101 "2017-07-05T17:29:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s rather odd, in any case, that American conservatives would complain about liberals finding flaws with their country when they’re the ones whose preferred Presidential candidate says everything about America is “a disaster” and that the country is no longer great. Good point. Me and my fellow liberals seem much happier than the angry voters who brought us Trump. (or even those who liked Rubio, Cruz, or JEB). ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/102 "2017-07-05T17:31:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s a thought: Things that bring people together in the spirit of community and welcomeness are generally good and things to pit people against each other in an “us versus them” nature are generally bad. This is pretty much it. I know I’m a day or two late to this party, but my neighborhood goes all out for July 4th, and it’s pretty well split 50/50, red/blue. Streets shut down and there’s an entire day of parades, fireworks, drinking, and tiny American flags. I was out with my family in my red white and blue with my American flag sunglasses along with everyone else. It really brings the community together. It’s not a dour holiday like Memorial Day, or a serious one like Veteran’s Day, or… whatever we’re supposed to feel on Labor Day and Washington’s Birthday. There’s no Anglo baggage like Thanksgiving, or religious baggage like Christmas. It’s just a big dumb holiday that everyone can celebrate by virtue of the imaginary borders they happen to be in. It’s a chance for us to put the American ideal in practice – it doesn’t matter where you’re from, what your background is, how long you’ve been here, if you like living in America then come on out, put on some goofy-ass clothes, get drunk, and maybe blow some stuff up. This is as good as patriotism gets. When patriotism is used to force people in line and stifle thought/speech, like [conservatives are fond of claiming political correctness is used](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/07/the-right-has-its-own-version-of-political-correctness-its-just-as-stifling/?utm_term=.3188f42e83d6), that’s bad, because as John Mace points out, it’s being used to divide rather than bring together. When it’s used to denigrate foreigners, or justify anti-social behavior on a global scale, that’s bad. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/103 "2017-07-05T17:35:19Z")
First, he was \*not \*our preferred candidate - you may recall some discussion of that point - but it’s fair to point out how many of us \*did \*prefer him. I do think he tried to appeal to patriotism, on the gut level called jingoism. Stirring up doubt and worry into fears, fear into anger, and anger into votes is how low-grade pols have done it since ancient Athens. All it takes is to identify an enemy group or two to blame for everything, and once again it was on ethnic and religious lines. But the appeal really is to love of country, even if it requires ignoring or dismissing the \*stated \*principles of a democratic republic. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/104 "2017-07-05T18:21:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hillary Clinton famously said that the irredeemable deplorables “are not America”, which maybe fits what **Bryan Ekers** was saying about (a) vilifying fellow Americans who have different views and (b) thinking that they’re not real Americans. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m confused on your point here. Is it that if a person says a lot of racist and sexist stuff, we ought not question their commitment to American ideals? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m, ah, confused by your confusion. > > **Bryan Ekers** offered up a test: > > > [@](#): > > > > Here’s a proposed test to see if your patriotism is good or not: > > > > 1. Are you keeping an eye out for situations where your fellow Americans are being treated unfairly, or > > > > 2. Are you looking at a great number of your fellow Americans and thinking that they’re not real Americans. > > He added that it was a question of whether you stand by and defend fellow Americans who have different views, or whether you oppose and vilify them. And so I figured I’d amiably shrug, and I thought about applying the test – and I’m not seeing how that equates to saying we ought not question someone’s commitment to stuff. You may see it as pointless hair-splitting, but it IS important to note that Secretary Clinton said _“are not **AMERICA** ”_ and not _“are not **AMERICANS** ”_. I can indicate someone demonstrating the qualities generally associated with the deplorables and have no problem telling a foreigner “That person is an American.” If I were to tell the foreigner “That person is AMERICA,” I would not be surprised to have that foreigner recoil in horror. Hell, if I believed for a moment that “That person is AMERICA” applied, _I’d_ recoil in horror. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/105 "2017-07-05T18:25:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > ☹ > > See, the question isn’t whether they’re “being picked on” in general; as per the test, the question is whether folks think they’re “not real Americans” in particular. > > As far as I can tell, we can criticize 'em in a dozen different ways and pass that test; but if we criticize 'em in one _specific_ way, we fail the test right then and there. > > That said, you sort of have a point: as far as I can tell, _by the terms of the test_ we fail if we vilify them for their views – but we can still pass as long as we vilify people for their sex or their race? Which may mean we should jettison the test? Well, it _was_ proposed by a Canadian… 🙂 j/k. It’s a good test, but we need to understand that it’s a test for _“What is America?”_ and not a test for _“Who is an American?”_ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/106 "2017-07-05T18:31:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know, I hadn’t really thought about it before, but now that I do, it seems absolutely crazy that we don’t have some sort of national holiday to celebrate the ending of slavery in the US. That is easily one of the biggest milestones in our history, and we should celebrate it. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’m sure you could have found a Juneteenth celebration somewhere near you, if you had been interested. But could he have found a Junteenth Appliance Sale? 'Cos _that’s_ the standard… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/107 "2017-07-05T18:33:34Z")
It is kind of hilarious how you conservatives are pissing and moaning about how liberals are ruining America, what with their inability to simply accept the blessings of this great country, and if only you could get rid of them that would Make America Great Again. Waaaah, liberals have ruined our once-great country! We never win anymore! America sucks! Waaaaah! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/108 "2017-07-05T18:35:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s rather odd, in any case, that American **conservatives** would complain about liberals finding flaws with their country when they’re the ones whose preferred Presidential candidate says everything about America is “a disaster” and that the country is no longer great. You misspelled “ **radical reactionaries**.” Of course, if you hadn’t, there wouldn’t be much to find odd. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/109 "2017-07-05T18:39:44Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Patriotism is a good thing. Nationalism is patriotism’s evil twin. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How are these two distinguishable in your view? [Here’s a little primer on that.](http://smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/110 "2017-07-05T19:23:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know, I hadn’t really thought about it before, but now that I do, it seems absolutely crazy that we don’t have some sort of national holiday to celebrate the ending of slavery in the US. That is easily one of the biggest milestones in our history, and we should celebrate it. One issue might well be that recognising the point at which slavery was outlawed also means you end up pointing to all the years it wasn’t. Perhaps more to the point, ending slavery isn’t a great good. It’s the cessation of a great evil. Celebrating the end of slavery in the US seems something like a serial killer going “Hey, I stopped killing people back in '02, how about a party?” It makes more sense in such a case to celebrate the police who have stopped those murders, or the therapist who convinced the killer to act otherwise - likewise, with slavery, to celebrate the actions of people who contributed to its end. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/111 "2017-07-05T19:56:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s no Anglo baggage like Thanksgiving It is the epitome of an anglo celebration. Some people might tell themselves, “I’m celebrating the ideals of America, even though the implementation has been problematic in many ways,” and that’s their choice. But it’s pretty hard to defend the assertion that celebrating the 4th of July and American patriotism doesn’t carry an implicit message that Americans who have traditionally been (or are currently) oppressed/at odds with the US government should keep quiet and participate in the revelries and speeches of the oh-so-festive day. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/112 "2017-07-05T20:19:15Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > One issue might well be that recognising the point at which slavery was outlawed also means you end up pointing to all the years it wasn’t. > > Perhaps more to the point, ending slavery isn’t a great good. It’s the cessation of a great evil. Celebrating the end of slavery in the US seems something like a serial killer going “Hey, I stopped killing people back in '02, how about a party?” I don’t think people who celebrate Juneteenth look at it in such a way. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/113 "2017-07-05T20:25:53Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > It is the epitome of an anglo celebration. Some people might tell themselves, “I’m celebrating the ideals of America, even though the implementation has been problematic in many ways,” and that’s their choice. But it’s pretty hard to defend the assertion that celebrating the 4th of July and American patriotism doesn’t carry an implicit message that Americans who have traditionally been (or are currently) oppressed/at odds with the US government should keep quiet and participate in the revelries and speeches of the oh-so-festive day. “What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?” > **[What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?](https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july-2/)** > > The speech shows the moral outrage that powered the abolition movement and made it so threatening to Southern slave holders, but also to anyone willing to tolerate or ignore slavery. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/114 "2017-07-05T20:28:50Z")
That’s why Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/115 "2017-07-05T23:00:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s no Anglo baggage like Thanksgiving. > [@Eonwe](#): > > It is the epitome of an anglo celebration. Some people might tell themselves, “I’m celebrating the ideals of America, even though the implementation has been problematic in many ways,” and that’s their choice. But it’s pretty hard to defend the assertion that celebrating the 4th of July and American patriotism doesn’t carry an implicit message that Americans who have traditionally been (or are currently) oppressed/at odds with the US government should keep quiet and participate in the revelries and speeches of the oh-so-festive day. Right. I mean, maybe your average white American is unaware of the baggage, but plenty of people have a problem with the 4th of July. They are just out-numbered by the fans. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/116 "2017-07-05T23:05:48Z")
[NPR Tweeted Declaration of Independence and Trump Supports Flipped Out.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/npr-declaration-of-independence_us_595c6525e4b0da2c7325bd50) I wonder how many of those negative tweets were written by people who call themselves patriots. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/117 "2017-07-05T23:17:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [NPR Tweeted Declaration of Independence and Trump Supports Flipped Out.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/npr-declaration-of-independence_us_595c6525e4b0da2c7325bd50) > > I wonder how many of those negative tweets were written by people who call themselves patriots. ‘somebody said something stupid on Twitter’ sounds just like every other Tuesday. At the risk of sounding like President Trump, I think it’s sad that this is considered a news-worthy story by the Huffington Post. ETA: but when CNN is threatening to dox people, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/118 "2017-07-05T23:40:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ‘somebody said something stupid on Twitter’ sounds just like every other Tuesday. At the risk of sounding like President Trump, I think it’s sad that this is considered a news-worthy story by the Huffington Post. > > ETA: but when CNN is threatening to dox people, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Personally, I find it hilarious, indicative, and ironic all at the same time. Who is CNN threatening to dox? (I actually had to look that word up…100K vocab and I never heard of it before. Makes sense, based on ‘document,’ I guess.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/119 "2017-07-05T23:49:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Personally, I find it hilarious, indicative, and ironic all at the same time. > > Who is CNN threatening to dox? > > (I actually had to look that word up…100K vocab and I never heard of it before. Makes sense, based on ‘document,’ I guess.) The guy that created that [Trump-wrestling-CNN meme that the President posted on Twitter a couple of days ago](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/881503147168071680). TBH, I haven’t been following the story very closely. Here is the relevant portion of [CNN’s ‘statement’ / story / whatever-it-is](http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/04/politics/kfile-reddit-user-trump-tweet/index.html): > [@](#): > > After posting his apology, “HanA **holeSolo" called CNN’s KFile and confirmed his identity. In the interview, "HanA** holeSolo” sounded nervous about his identity being revealed and asked to not be named out of fear for his personal safety and for the public embarrassment it would bring to him and his family. > > CNN is not publishing “HanA\*\*holeSolo’s” name because he is a private citizen who has issued an extensive statement of apology, showed his remorse by saying he has taken down all his offending posts, and because he said he is not going to repeat this ugly behavior on social media again. In addition, he said his statement could serve as an example to others not to do the same. > > CNN reserves the right to publish his identity should any of that change. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/120 "2017-07-05T23:51:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ‘somebody said something stupid on Twitter’ sounds just like every other Tuesday. At the risk of sounding like President Trump, I think it’s sad that this is considered a news-worthy story by the Huffington Post. > > ETA: but when CNN is threatening to dox people, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. I think it’s sad that there are Americans who do not recognize the words of the Declaration of Independence and call those words “trash” and “horsechit”[sic], and they are unabashed enough to expose their ignorance online in hateful fashion. I also find it sad that instead of agreeing with me that these people are idiots, you’re attacking the media. I wonder who you could be getting that tactic from? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=7)