# 'MERICA!!! patriotism / nationalism: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438 "2017-07-03T15:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/141 "2017-07-06T20:33:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I REALLY doubt that’s what he had in mind when he said “she has some flaws.” Perhaps he just has a different idea of how to celebrate an anniversary. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/142 "2017-07-06T21:00:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I REALLY doubt that’s what he had in mind when he said “she has some flaws.” > [@Shodan](#): > > Perhaps he just has a different idea of how to celebrate an anniversary. > > Regards, > Shodan The united states has some flaws that are of that level of reprehensibility, both in how we treat others abroad and how we treat our own citizens here at home. To declare hat it is off limits to criticize those flaws, because of what day it is, or where we are, or what you are celebrating, isn’t being patriotic, it is sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the flaws. Maybe if we can go a day without doing anything that needs criticizing, then we can go a day without being criticized. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/143 "2017-07-06T21:26:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The united states has some flaws that are of that level of reprehensibility, both in how we treat others abroad and how we treat our own citizens here at home. “that level of reprehensibility” being this: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you are walking home with her, and as you pass a homeless person, she kicks him until he is unconscious, then spits on him. You start to say something, but she gives you the look, and says “Don’t you dare criticize me on our anniversary!” ??? I’m curious now, which USA flaws would you equate to a nation-state level of ‘passing a homeless person, [kicking] him until he is unconscious, then spit[ting] on him’? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/144 "2017-07-06T21:46:05Z")
Racism. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/145 "2017-07-06T21:48:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “that level of reprehensibility” being this: > > ??? > > I’m curious now, which USA flaws would you equate to a nation-state level of ‘passing a homeless person, [kicking] him until he is unconscious, then spit[ting] on him’? I am not in the mood to make a list for you to cherry pick, so I’ll go with just one example. [It’s not exactly the same](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-raping-beating-guilty-probation/), becuase he pisses on her after he rapes her, instead of spitting, but even you should be willing to critize actions like this. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/146 "2017-07-06T21:58:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am not in the mood to make a list for you to cherry pick, so I’ll go with just one example. > > [It’s not exactly the same](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-raping-beating-guilty-probation/), becuase he pisses on her after he rapes her, instead of spitting, but even you should be willing to critize actions like this. Yeah, I can criticize actions like that. Former deputy Robert Retford sounds like a real shitbag. But the actions of one criminal (and we have more than our fair share of criminals) weren’t really what I had in mind when I asked “which USA flaws would you equate to a nation-state level of …”. See, I was kind of hoping for something more … at the nation-state level, not the individual level. Every country of any size has criminals, and I suppose you could criticize the USA for having criminals, but that same criticism could be leveled at virtually every nation. It’s not really comparable to spitting on and kicking a random homeless person into unconsciousness for no reason. \<– that’s a level of pointless savagery that is _uncommon_, almost unique. The thing you cited was quite common (at least at a nation-state level: for countries to have some criminals in their midst). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/147 "2017-07-06T22:08:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yeah, I can criticize actions like that. Former deputy Robert Retford sounds like a real shitbag. But the actions of one criminal (and we have more than our fair share of criminals) weren’t really what I had in mind when I asked “which USA flaws would you equate to a nation-state level of …”. See, I was kind of hoping for something more … at the nation-state level, not the individual level. Every country of any size has criminals, and I suppose you could criticize the USA for having criminals, but that same criticism could be leveled at virtually every nation. It’s not really comparable to spitting on and kicking a random homeless person into unconsciousness for no reason. \<– that’s a level of pointless savagery that is _uncommon_, almost unique. The thing you cited was quite common (at least at a nation-state level: for countries to have some criminals in their midst). The fact that you consider cops raping women while on duty and getting away with it to be “quite common” is something to criticize as well. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/148 "2017-07-06T22:55:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The fact that you consider cops raping women while on duty and getting away with it to be “quite common” is something to criticize as well. If you’re going to misinterpret / misrepresent my posts this badly, could you at least drop the annoying habit of prefacing your misrepresentation with “the fact that” because it’s anything but ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/149 "2017-07-07T01:54:18Z")
And the horse upon in which you rode! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/150 "2017-07-07T14:47:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you’re going to misinterpret / misrepresent my posts this badly, could you at least drop the annoying habit of prefacing your misrepresentation with “the fact that” because it’s anything but I am not sure how I misrepresented your post. You asked what the US does that is worth criticising, even on a day like the fourth of july, and I responded with an example of a police officer responding to a call for assistance by a woman, then raping and beating her, as well as pissing and shitting on her, and then even admitting it, and getting a slap on the wrist for it. Your reply was that my example was “quite common”. I pointed out that the fact that police raping and beating the people that they are supposed to be helping, and getting off with a slap on the wrist being a common thing is also something to criticize. What is there to misinterpret in your statement “The thing you cited was quite common”? I suppose in my wording, it could come across that I meant that you should be criticized for considering it to be common, and that’s not how I intended it, if you took it that way. I just meant that the fact that it is considered common that cops can get away with behavior like that is something that our country can well be criticized for. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/151 "2017-07-07T15:33:43Z")
What he said was common was for a nation-state to have some criminals in it. Which is not merely common but universal. But your posts have been useful, as a demonstration of what I originally mentioned. Some people apparently can’t stand to hear anyone praise the things that make America great. The standard seems to be “until you’re perfect, you don’t get any praise, and I’m gonna exaggerate your every flaw”. If I wanted to show either my wife or my country that I love her, that isn’t how I’d start. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/152 "2017-07-07T16:10:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am not sure how I misrepresented your post. > > You asked what the US does that is worth criticising, even on a day like the fourth of july, and I responded with an example of a police officer responding to a call for assistance by a woman, then raping and beating her, as well as pissing and shitting on her, and then even admitting it, and getting a slap on the wrist for it. > > Your reply was that my example was “quite common”. > > I pointed out that the fact that police raping and beating the people that they are supposed to be helping, and getting off with a slap on the wrist being a common thing is also something to criticize. > > What is there to misinterpret in your statement “The thing you cited was quite common”? I suppose in my wording, it could come across that I meant that you should be criticized for considering it to be common, and that’s not how I intended it, if you took it that way. I just meant that the fact that it is considered common that cops can get away with behavior like that is something that our country can well be criticized for. I think it’s similar to the America/American distinction from earlier in the thread. While the police officer who did this was American, his actions wouldn’t be condoned by most of America and his actions don’t represent any sort of collective, national decision to act that way. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/153 "2017-07-07T16:11:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What he said was common was for a nation-state to have some criminals in it. Which is not merely common but universal. He said, “The thing you cited was quite common.”, not that it was common for a nation to have criminals. What is not common is for the police to be allowed impunity for abusing the population. Well, it is common, but not in countries that use the word “freedom” unironically". > [@](#): > > But your posts have been useful, as a demonstration of what I originally mentioned. Some people apparently can’t stand to hear anyone praise the things that make America great. How’s that? How, precisely, do my posts show that I can’t stand to hear anyone praise things that are good about our country? > [@](#): > > The standard seems to be “until you’re perfect, you don’t get any praise, and I’m gonna exaggerate your every flaw”. If I wanted to show either my wife or my country that I love her, that isn’t how I’d start. YMMV. That’ a pretty terrible standard. And it is not one that I was following. I was asked for an example of something that the US needs work on, something that we should be critical in its current failure to uphold the standards of being a great nation, and I responded. Your standard seems to be, “Everything you do is perfect, and if there is anything that anyone thinks is less than perfect about you, then they simply can’t stand to see you get praised.” If you wanted to show your wife or your country unquestioning obedience and supplication, that is how you would start. > [@](#): > > Regards, > Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/154 "2017-07-07T16:12:29Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think it’s similar to the America/American distinction from earlier in the thread. While the police officer who did this was American, his actions wouldn’t be condoned by most of America and his actions don’t represent any sort of collective, national decision to act that way. His actions do not, I agree. The fact that he received a slap on the wrist for abusing his govt granted authority does. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/155 "2017-07-07T16:34:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I have a hard time seeing how racists and misogynists, which Clinton labeled “deplorable,” are being treated unfairly if they spout their vile nonsense and then others criticize them. You seem to imply that such people are being picked on. It’s easy, really. It’s a freedom of speech issue. Freedom of speech in its new meaning: “I get the last word. No discussion. If you speak against me, you violate my freedom of speech.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/156 "2017-07-07T16:43:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He said, “The thing you cited was quite common.”, not that it was common for a nation to have criminals. Actually he said that pretty much exactly - > [@](#): > > The thing you cited was quite common (at least at a nation-state level: **for countries to have some criminals in their midst** ). Emphasis added. > [@](#): > > How’s that? How, precisely, do my posts show that I can’t stand to hear anyone praise things that are good about our country? Mostly because you jumped into a thread discussing the Fourth of July celebration by accusing the US of doing the moral equivalent of beating up homeless people at random. Did you really not get my analogy of my anniversary with my wife? You could not apparently accept that my wife could be generally good enough, albeit flawed, such that there might be times when I celebrate what is good about her. No, it must be the case that she randomly attacks strangers. > [@](#): > > I was asked for an example of something that the US needs work on, something that we should be critical in its current failure to uphold the standards of being a great nation, and I responded. Actually you were asked for an example of something the US did that was the equivalent of randomly beating up homeless people, to justify the fact that you cannot abide any occasion of celebration of America that does not include accusations of moral monstrosity. > [@](#): > > Your standard seems to be, “Everything you do is perfect, and if there is anything that anyone thinks is less than perfect about you, then they simply can’t stand to see you get praised.” If you wanted to show your wife or your country unquestioning obedience and supplication, that is how you would start. It’s funny how you got from “generally good although with some flaws” to “perfect”. And by funny, I don’t mean ha-ha funny. I’ll ask you directly - do you believe there can ever be an occasion where I can praise my wife or my country without immediately changing the subject to their flaws? Ever? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/157 "2017-07-07T17:02:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Awhile back (well, a good long while back) there was an op-ed about a woman who for many years had displayed the American flag on July 4th. > > During the Vietnam War, she received congratulations from people who assumed her flag display meant she supported U.S. policy on Vietnam, and condemnations from others who assumed she was a Vietnam war hawk. Both sets of assumptions were deeply flawed. > > Traditional patriotic displays are fine with me, and should be acceptable to any American who doesn’t have a full-on loathing for their country. And even if they do, it’s tactically foolish to condemn displays of patriotism, just as it’s counterproductive to sneer at support for those doing military service\*. > > \*we still continue to see periodic Dope threads dedicated to the idea that armed forces members get too much attention/respect. This is my sentiment. > [@Eonwe](#): > > I find expressions of national pride gauche and distasteful. > > Most simply, there are people whom this country treats poorly, by design or by accident. Waving my flag in their faces, and expecting some kind of solidarity or agreement about the “greatness” of the nation is to be willfully blind to their suffering, and the nation’s part in it. > > Throw obsession with the armed forces and “traditional” white middle-class pageantry as a formula for the right way to celebrate America into the mix, and I’ll skip the 4th, thank you very much. Don’t allow the right-wing to define patriotism. Patriotism means love of country: celebrating what it does right (to keep doing it) and recognizing what it does wrong (to improve it). It the current political environment, everyone opposed to the president and the congress need to rally to our flag. Force them to recognize that we are the ones defending America’s values. That their agenda weakens and embarrasses America. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/158 "2017-07-07T17:35:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He said, “The thing you cited was quite common.”, not that it was common for a nation to have criminals. No, you’re wrong. I put it in parentheses so that it’d be clear: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The thing you cited was quite common (at least at a nation-state level: for countries to have some criminals in their midst). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/159 "2017-07-07T18:20:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually he said that pretty much exactly - Emphasis added. > Mostly because you jumped into a thread discussing the Fourth of July celebration by accusing the US of doing the moral equivalent of beating up homeless people at random. > > Did you really not get my analogy of my anniversary with my wife? You could not apparently accept that my wife could be generally good enough, albeit flawed, such that there might be times when I celebrate what is good about her. No, it must be the case that she randomly attacks strangers. Actually you were asked for an example of something the US did that was the equivalent of randomly beating up homeless people, to justify the fact that you cannot abide any occasion of celebration of America that does not include accusations of moral monstrosity. > It’s funny how you got from “generally good although with some flaws” to “perfect”. And by funny, I don’t mean ha-ha funny. > > I’ll ask you directly - do you believe there can ever be an occasion where I can praise my wife or my country without immediately changing the subject to their flaws? Ever? > > Regards, > Shodan So…let me get this straight. You’re criticizing someone for criticizing the country on the 4th? They should rather ignore it on that day, because it’s not patriotic to recognize a problem in the country and say so? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438/160 "2017-07-07T18:39:29Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So…let me get this straight. You’re criticizing someone for criticizing the country on the 4th? They should rather ignore it on that day, because it’s not patriotic to recognize a problem in the country and say so? I’ll ask you the same question - do you believe there can ever be an occasion where I can praise my country without immediately changing the subject to its flaws? Ever? If you can answer the question, it might help you understand what I have posted. Possibly not, but we can always hope. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merica-patriotism-nationalism-good-or-bad/790438.md?page=9)