# Merlin: Hero or Villain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952 "2017-08-28T19:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/1 "2017-08-28T19:32:55Z")
How do you tend to view Merlin, of the Arthurian legend? A good intentioned man who simply felt the ends justified the means, or in a darker light? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/2 "2017-08-28T20:15:56Z")
I tend to view Merlin as wholly different in each work the character shows up in. There’s not enough in common between Tennyson’s Merlin in _Idylls of the King_ and White’s Merlin in _The Once and Future King_ to treat them as depictions of the same person. And both all but unrecognizable when compared to legends/folklore about Myrddin Wyllt. ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/3 "2017-08-28T20:44:16Z")
A trickster, like Anansi or Coyote. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/4 "2017-08-28T21:07:09Z")
A Mentor & Teacher Of Heroes. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/5 "2017-08-28T22:24:26Z")
A dream to some…A NIGHTMARE TO OTHERS! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/6 "2017-08-28T22:29:41Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I tend to view Merlin as wholly different in each work the character shows up in. There’s not enough in common between Tennyson’s Merlin in _Idylls of the King_ and White’s Merlin in _The Once and Future King_ to treat them as depictions of the same person. Yep. Merlin is endlessly malleable. Mary Stewart’s low magic protagonist has virtually nothing in common with Roger Zelazny’s half-insane antagonist. There is no single consistent vision of Merlin. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/7 "2017-08-28T22:29:54Z")
Merlin is so malleable a character that I have no problem depicting him many different ways. However, I prefer to think of him primarily as a cagey and almost-Machiavellian political advisor who instructs Arthur on how to gain power and–upon becoming king–successfully run a state. For all of Arthur’s charisma, he’s the real power behind the throne and that’s made apparent when Arthur’s kingdom falls apart once Merlin is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/8 "2017-08-28T22:42:09Z")
Although he seemed a fool, it turns out he was only biding his time, until that Yankee finally screwed things up enough that centuries of sleep seemed like a good idea. In other words, pick one OP, then ask us. Which version of Merlin were you talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/9 "2017-08-28T23:53:28Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > . . . Roger Zelazny’s half-insane antagonist. . . . Ooh! Which book! I love Zelazny, and I don’t think I know this one. My overall impression is that Merlin is too much under the thumb of his fate. He isn’t allowed to be a hero, or even a great advisor. He’d have loved to have been Gandalf, but he had too many limitations. (In some versions, he lives backward in time: that would make it virtually impossible to have any meaningful influence on the world!) (In a similar vein, is Lancelot a hero or a villain? He acts upon a great and profound love…but he cuckolds his liege, which no amount of love can justify.) I think the whole Arthurian deal revolves around people’s severe personal flaws, and Merlin is pretty damnable flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/10 "2017-08-29T00:19:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Ooh! Which book! I love Zelazny, and I don’t think I know this one. That would be the Merlin from _The Last Defender of Camelot_ (short story in an eponymous collection), not the Merlin from the second Amber Chronicles. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/11 "2017-08-29T00:37:38Z")
Or even the Merlin from the first Chronicle of Amber series! Grin! No worries, I’d figured that much out, but somehow have never read “Last Defender.” I’ll go in search! Thank’ee! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/12 "2017-08-29T01:31:28Z")
I guess things got boring in Great Debates. 😃 Pick a Merlin for us to discuss and we’ll proceed. Merlin runs some fairly wide ranges of age, abilities, and goals, depending upon who you read. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/13 "2017-08-29T02:12:44Z")
Agree that Merlin is a different character for each author - so are most of the other Arthurian characters (especially since some of the characters end up being merged by some authors). I read a short story some years back in which Merlin was really nasty (this version of Merlin had killed Uther’s son as soon he was out of sight of the Uther’s party, and placed his own son with the foster family). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/14 "2017-08-29T02:22:17Z")
[Auto mechanic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Merlin). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/merlin-hero-or-villain/794952/15 "2017-08-29T02:31:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > In a similar vein, is Lancelot a hero or a villain? He acts upon a great and profound love…but he cuckolds his liege, which no amount of love can justify. In the _exact same vein,_ someone once built a short story around what jumped out at the author in one version of the Arthurian myth: that Merlin (a) is a somewhat feeble old man who – being a sucker for a pretty face – exits the tale juuuust before Lancelot arrives on the scene to outfight anyone who gets in his way before he beds Guinevere; oh, and that Merlin (b) is great at tricksy magic, like changing a guy’s appearance. You can connect the dot there, right?