# Messianic Jews and Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675 "2003-07-24T18:10:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/1 "2003-07-24T18:10:53Z")
I have a [Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=199570) which is currently being hijacked by the question of whether one can believe that the Messiah has already arrived and still be religiously Jewish. A number of people have weighed in to say that Jews absolutely, positively must believe that the Jewish Messiah hasn’t come yet. If you think he already has, you’re not a Jew. There even seems to be a strong implication that it’s outright offensive for someone to claim to be a Messianic Jew. My question is, how is this any different from arguing that Mormons aren’t real Christians? ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/2 "2003-07-24T18:32:51Z")
Well, Mormons believe in Christ, though a lot of their doctrines are way different than mainstream Christianity. That does, however, make them Christians. If they did not believe, in even some vague form, in the divinity of Christ, then they wouldn’t be Christians. I am trying to be rational about this, but belief in Christ is THE dividing line between Jew and Christian, isn’t it? Christians do. Jews don’t. I do find it offensive in that from what I have read these groups are basically deceiving people and deliberately perverting another religion to forward their own. I find it highly unethical. I’m going to go look for some links about this, but I’m not going to have time until later to do it, so nobody re-Pit me until I have a chance, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/3 "2003-07-24T18:37:47Z")
Who said anything about Christ? Suppose you have a group of Orthodox Jews who believe that such-and-such particular person is the Messiah. Are they really not Orthodox Jews by virtue of that one belief? And who are you to decide one way or the other? While we’re at it, what about Christian Science, or the Unification Church? In what sense must one “believe in Christ” in order to be a Christian? > [@](#): > > \*\*I do find it offensive in that from what I have read these groups are basically deceiving people and deliberately perverting another religion to forward their own. I find it highly unethical. \*\* The Lubavitchers are perverting another religion in order to further their own? ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/4 "2003-07-24T18:42:48Z")
My understanding is that Jews do not believe that CHRIST is the Messiah. Not that NOBODY can be, but that this Jesus dude wasn’t him. The Lubavitchers have a different Messiah figure. Here’s a site illustrating how Jews feel about all of this – a lot of Jews, a cross-section from what I can tell – [http://www.jewsforjudaism.org](http://www.jewsforjudaism.org) ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/5 "2003-07-24T18:43:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whiterabbit \* > \*\*I do find it offensive in that from what I have read these groups are basically deceiving people and deliberately perverting another religion to forward their own. I find it highly unethical. \*\* Are you aware that this is pretty much word-for-word how a lot of fundies view Mormonism? (Not to mention Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.) It was certainly the view I was taught in school. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/6 "2003-07-24T18:47:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whiterabbit \* > \*\*My understanding is that Jews do not believe that CHRIST is the Messiah. \*\* Who was appointed to make these decisions? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Here’s a site illustrating how Jews feel about all of this – a lot of Jews, a cross-section from what I can tell – > > [http://www.jewsforjudaism.org](http://www.jewsforjudaism.org) \*\* Shall I whip out some sites that show that fundies don’t like Mormonism? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/7 "2003-07-24T18:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*I have a [Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=199570) which is currently being hijacked by the question of whether one can believe that the Messiah has already arrived and still be religiously Jewish. A number of people have weighed in to say that Jews absolutely, positively must believe that the Jewish Messiah hasn’t come yet. If you think he already has, you’re not a Jew. There even seems to be a strong implication that it’s outright offensive for someone to claim to be a Messianic Jew. > > My question is, how is this any different from arguing that Mormons aren’t real Christians? \*\* Well, for starters, Maimonides, in his 13 Articles of Faith, makes the point that a Jew must believe in the (eventual) coming of the messiah. The actual wording is (translation mine): > [@](#): > > I believe with a complete belief in the coming of the messiah, and even though he may tarry, even so I will await him every day that he may arrive. Furthermore, Maimonides writes after the 13th principle that anyone who does not share these prinicples is not considered as a member of the Jewish faith[sup]\*[/sup]. So, in short, you cannot believe, as a Jew, that the messiah has already arrived. WRT to Jesus, the matter is even worse in that most Christian sects have deified Jesus and made him an object of worship. That (and the fact that he did not accomplish the tasks that the messiah was supposed to accomplish) completely puts Jesus out of the picture as the Jewish messiah and puts anyone believing him to be the Jewish messiah out of the ballpark. I’ve always found it interesting that in all the arguments and disagreements that Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Jewery have had over the years, one of the only things that we all agree on is that there is no place in Judaism for a belief in Jesus as the messiah (let alone as part of a Trinity). So, is it offensive for a Messianic Jew to call himself such? I don’t know if I’d call it that. My main argument with groups such as Jews for Jesus was not that they go around and preach the Gospel and Christianity, but that they disguise it as Judaism and prey on the less educated members of the Jewish community. My take on the matter was always that if you wanted to go out and preach the Gospel and promote Christianity, then by all means go out and do so, but don’t disguise it as Judaism and deceive people. As to the Mormon/Christian conflict, I only have a superficial knowledge of the conflict, so I wouldn’t even want to venture an opinion. [sup][li][/sup]Despite what Maimonides wrote, an apostate Jew is still a Jew and is still subject to Jewish law. However, WRT certain laws, he is considered as non-Jewish (i.e. he cannot count for a _minyan_, any animal he slaughters is not kosher, etc.[/li] Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/8 "2003-07-24T18:53:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **So, is it offensive for a Messianic Jew to call himself such? I don’t know if I’d call it that. My main argument with groups such as Jews for Jesus was not that they go around and preach the Gospel and Christianity, but that they disguise it as Judaism and prey on the less educated members of the Jewish community. My take on the matter was always that if you wanted to go out and preach the Gospel and promote Christianity, then by all means go out and do so, but don’t disguise it as Judaism and deceive people.** That’s what I’ve been trying to get at and totally failing to say. Thank you, **zev**. It’s the deception that bothers me. As to who made the decision that Jews don’t believe in Christ, I have no idea, but it’s been a couple of thousand years since that decision was made. That’s why they are two separate faiths. The Messianic folks are trying to blur the lines to convert people to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/9 "2003-07-24T18:56:33Z")
Zev, you’ve indirectly raised an important point. There are Orthodox rabbis who claim that Reform Jews aren’t really Jewish. You could also make a strong case that Jews who don’t practice circumcision or who don’t keep kosher aren’t really Jews. (And by “strong” I mean as strong a case as the fundies make WRT Mormonism.) I guess my whole problem with this is that at the SDMB, if you claim that Mormons aren’t Christian, a crowd of people will descend upon you and start an acrimonious argument to prove that Mormons really are Christian. And if you claim that it’s possible to be Jewish and follow Jesus, a crowd containing many of the same people will descend upon you and start an acrimonious argument to prove that Jews who follow Jesus really _aren’t_ Jewish. For starters, I’d like to see some proof that Jews for Jesus are really engaging in deliberate dishonesty. Like I said, the claims being made about Jews for Jesus are exactly the claims fundies make about Mormonism. (i.e., “Those people are outside my personal comfort zone for doctrinal differences. Therefore, they’re a conspiracy secretly plotting to prey upon the good people of my religion.”) ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/10 "2003-07-24T19:01:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whiterabbit \* > \*\*As to who made the decision that Jews don’t believe in Christ, I have no idea, but it’s been a couple of thousand years since that decision was made. That’s why they are two separate faiths. The Messianic folks are trying to blur the lines to convert people to Christianity. \*\* So? Who cares if they’re trying to blur the line? Dishonesty is one thing, but some people seem to be all up in arms just because there’s line-blurring going on. (Fundies, incidentally, save their strongest venom for religions like Mormonism, which they consider to be almost-but-not-quite-true-Christianity.) Many people also seem to be offended by the very idea that Christians would try to convert Jews. In fact, when a Christian theme park opened a couple of years ago, an irate local rabbi ranted to the press about how horrible it was that these awful Christians would actually make a theme park which claimed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. How dare they! That’s clearly an attempt to convert Jews! If you have proof of your claims of dishonesty, let’s hear them. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/11 "2003-07-24T19:06:37Z")
I give up. I don’t know how you can defend these people, but if you want to, go right ahead. I am far too upset to say anything more about this. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/12 "2003-07-24T19:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Zev, you’ve indirectly raised an important point. There are Orthodox rabbis who claim that Reform Jews aren’t really Jewish. \*\* Minor nitpick: What the Rabbis you are quoting as saying such are not really saying what you are making them say. What they say is two things: (1) Reform Judaism is not Judiasm. The statement is on the movement, not on the individual members. All Orthodox Rabbis hold the position that the vast majority of people who identify as Reform Jews are still Jews. (2) Reform Jews who are such by the definition of Judaism that Reform holds to, but where it differs from Orthodox Judaism, are not Jews. This includes two classes of people: (a) Reform Jews who are born to non-Jewish mothers but Jewish fathers. (b) People who convert to Judaism under the auspices of the Reform movement. People in those two classes are not Jews according to Orthodox Jews. But otherwise the statement is on the movement, not on the individual members. IOW, they are Jews, but what they are practicing is not Judaism. > [@](#): > > \*\* > You could also make a strong case that Jews who don’t practice circumcision or who don’t keep kosher aren’t really Jews. \*\* No you can’t. You can make the case that what they are practicing is not Judaism, but you cannot make the case based on observance level alone whether or not they are Jews. > [@](#): > > \*\* > For starters, I’d like to see some proof that Jews for Jesus are really engaging in deliberate dishonesty. Like I said, the claims being made about Jews for Jesus are exactly the claims fundies make about Mormonism. \*\* For starters every other group of Jews in the world, despite our differences, all agree that belief in Jesus as the messiah is outside the pale of Judaism. If you don’t allow us Jews can’t define what is Jewish and what isn’t, then all definitions no longer have meaning, and anyone can claim that anything is Judaism. You can have a group claiming that worshipping the North Star is Judaism. What, every other group of Jews disagrees with that? So what? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/13 "2003-07-24T20:04:29Z")
**zev\_steinhardt** - Are you arguing that Jews who believe that Jesus is Messiah are not Jews, or are not practicing Judaism? If this sounds too confrontational, please disregard with my apologies, as I do not wish to offend you (or anyone else). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/14 "2003-07-24T20:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\ ***zev\_steinhardt** - > > Are you arguing that Jews who believe that Jesus is Messiah are not Jews, or are not practicing Judaism? \*\* A bit of both. Jews who believe that Jesus is the messiah are Jewish (provided that they are otherwise Jewish). However, they are (a) not practicing Judaism and (b) treated as non-Jews WRT some Jewish laws. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If this sounds too confrontational, please disregard with my apologies, as I do not wish to offend you (or anyone else). \*\* No offense taken. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/15 "2003-07-24T20:18:51Z")
Do all Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah believe this as part of some form of Trinitarianism? Or are there some who believe in Jesus as a human, not-to-be-worshipped Messiah? (Obviously this would still require some diversion from mainstream Jewish ideas of what Messiah-hood is all about.) Because it seems like there’s a pretty big difference between the two. **zev** : > [@](#): > > Well, for starters, Maimonides, in his 13 Articles of Faith, makes the point that a Jew must believe in the (eventual) coming of the messiah. The actual wording is (translation mine): > > ## quote: > > ## I believe with a complete belief in the coming of the messiah, and even though he may tarry, even so I will await him every day that he may arrive. > > Furthermore, Maimonides writes after the 13th principle that anyone who does not share these prinicples is not considered as a member of the Jewish faith\*. So, in short, you cannot believe, as a Jew, that the messiah has already arrived. Uh…I think probably I’m missing something here; can you clarify? Wouldn’t this logically mean that even when the Real True Jewish Messiah actually does come, any Jew who recognizes him will automatically become no longer a member of the Jewish faith? That doesn’t seem right… ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/16 "2003-07-24T20:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by king of spain \* > \*\*Do all Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah believe this as part of some form of Trinitarianism? Or are there some who believe in Jesus as a human, not-to-be-worshipped Messiah? (Obviously this would still require some diversion from mainstream Jewish ideas of what Messiah-hood is all about.) Because it seems like there’s a pretty big difference between the two. \*\* If a Jew believes (according to Jewish law) that Jesus was a human messiah, then he is mistaken. If he believes Jesus was a god (or part of the Trinity) then he is guilty of idolatry. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Uh…I think probably I’m missing something here; can you clarify? Wouldn’t this logically mean that even when the Real True Jewish Messiah actually does come, any Jew who recognizes him will automatically become no longer a member of the Jewish faith? That doesn’t seem right… \*\* Obviously, that Article of Faith will change when the messiah shows up. Ah, now you’re going to ask “Well, maybe he showed up already…” The same person (Maimonides) who penned these articles of faith, also provided guidelines for determining the messiah. Needless to say, Jesus doesn’t fit. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/17 "2003-07-24T20:40:43Z")
Then can I ask why Maimonides is the accepted authority? Is he considered to have been divinely inspired, as the authors of the New Testament are considered in Christianity? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/18 "2003-07-24T20:53:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Then can I ask why Maimonides is the accepted authority? Is he considered to have been divinely inspired, as the authors of the New Testament are considered in Christianity? > \*\* Maimonides is accepted as authoritative because he is accepted as authoritative. I know that that sounds circular, and to some degree it is. His writings are not considered “divine” in the same respect that the Torah is considered so (or that the NT is considered so by Christians). However, Jewish leaders, through the years, have been granted the authority by their co-religionists to make statements of faith and decide matters of Jewish law. Thus, for example, a Rabbi today can make a ruling on whether email communication is covered under the law of _lashon ha-ra_ (speaking evil of someone). Certainly Moses wasn’t told this law, nor were any of the subsequent Rabbis up to this generation. However, that doesn’t make today’s Rabbi’s decision on the matter any less binding. Maimonides writings on the subject are considered authoritative because: (a) Today’s Jews consider it as such (b) It did not contradict Jewish tradition as taught up to that time © Maimonides is considered the pre-eminent sage of his day (d) No one has written subsequently saying “Maimonides position on this is wrong for this and this reason…” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/19 "2003-07-24T21:22:08Z")
**Zev** , a very small cavil at your discussion on Jesus. While I have absolutely no problem with the idea that, from your perspective and that of Orthodox Judaism, Jesus did not fulfill the qualifications for Messiahship, I do have a difficulty with the misinterpretation of Christianity that you reach. From our understanding, as from yours, God is **one**. There is no other god worthy of the name. Let me set you an analogy. When God came down to Abraham at Mamre, when He appeared to Moses on Sinai, when His Glory was present over the Ark of the Covenant, He remained omnipresent and omniscient – it is merely that He manifested Himself in a specific way at a specific time and place. By our understanding, He, remaining One, is nonetheless composed of three Persons sharing a common will and godhead. It is not that the Father appeared to Abraham and Moses – **God** did – and, by our understanding God is tripersonal. The man Jesus was born to Mary at Bethlehem, and by our beliefs the Second Person of that Trinity manifested Himself in the person of that man, His humanity and the divine personage being joined in a hypostatic union. ( **tomndebb** or **Dogface** can explain the arcana of Trinitarian orthodoxy better than I, but that’s a rough cut at “Christology for Dummies” in 25 words or less.) We do not recognize Him as **a** god – we recognize Him as the God, the God of Abraham and Moses, who has taken on human form in the Incarnation to reunite the God who longs for His stiffnecked and stubborn people to repent and return to Him, with humankind, alienated from Him by sin and self-will. While I am not seeking to have you buy into this understanding as a theological principle in which you should believe, I very much wish that you stand in opposition to the beliefs that we do have, not a misunderstanding of them that ascribes tritheism to us. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675/20 "2003-07-24T21:32:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whiterabbit \* > \*\*I give up. I don’t know how you can defend these people, but if you want to, go right ahead. I am far too upset to say anything more about this. \*\* “Group X is nasty!” “Cite?” “I can’t believe you’re defending anyone as nasty as Group X! I’m leaving!” It looks like the similarities to His4Ever ran deeper than I thought! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews-and-mormonism/190675.md?page=2)