# Messianic Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 21, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269 "2005-06-21T23:15:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/41 "2005-06-24T13:34:47Z")
No, while there is a tradition of ceremonially pretending someone like me is dead, however, unless it is preformed, it is assumed I will come back to the ways of Abraham. :rolleyes: Besides, I didn’t turn down “god” in favor of some non-existent guy, I simply chose not to be religious. Also, there is always the fact that the torah preaches a loving god, and yet the holocaust happened. So, they (the majority of jews) give skeptics, and even atheists like me, who mere born to jewish families, some breathing room. Besides, if I claim not to be a jew, and yet look like one, it makes me look self hating. Thus, when people on the street ask me if I am jewish, I answer, “genetically, yes. Religiously, no.” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/42 "2005-06-24T14:56:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > (Oh, and, “your” is possesive. **Gaudere** , strike me down.) Like shooting fish in a barrel. I’m assuming you meant “possessive”. (That made two attempts to come out wrong when I typed it, but I tamed the beast.) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/43 "2005-06-24T15:07:30Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Like shooting fish in a barrel. I’m assuming you meant “possessive”. (That made two attempts to come out wrong when I typed it, but I tamed the beast.) Good shootin’ Tex 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/44 "2005-06-24T15:53:16Z")
I’m aware of the relative progressiveness of the different schools of Judaism. The truth is, however, matrilineal Judaism is a **conservative** notion. Therefore it surprises me not at all that Reform is less likely to consider someone born from a Jewish mother a Jew than Orthodox. For the record, I am arguing about people who have Jewish mothers, no matter what their current religious affiliation. As was noted above, this generally does **not** characterize Jews for Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/45 "2005-06-24T17:41:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then I suppose atheists and agnostics couldn’t considered Jewish either. > > Although **edwino** ’s observent friend would probably consider an atheist Jew to be Jewish, just like a Christian Jew, non-practicing Jew, etc. > > Regards, > Shodan No. lapsed/atheist/agnostic Jews are still considered to be within the Jewish community (and are still allowed Right of Return in Israel). It is only when a Jew actively begins to practice another religion that he becomes an apostate and is regarded as having put himself outside the community. It’s ok not to practice, or even not to believe in God (there is even a sect of [Secular Humanistic Judaism](http://www.lcshj.org/)), but it’s NOT ok to worship a _different_ God or a false God and (from a Jewish perspective) that’s what converting to Christianity amounts to. From a religious perspective, there is no such thing as a “Christian Jew” any more than there is any such thing as a Christian Muslim. The theologies fundamentally conflict. There is, of course, sme ambiguity about ethnic or cultural definitions. The argument could be made that Hitler would not have distinguished between Orthodox Jews and “Messianic” Jews, but the major denominations of Judaism make that distinction and the State of Israel makes it and trying to define Judaism along genetic or ethnic lines is a bit of a dubious enterprise anyway. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/46 "2005-06-24T17:53:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Hell, there are some ultra-Orthodox sects which don’t even think Reform Jews are Jews Despite the fact that that is often bandied about, it simply is not true. Every Orthodox Jew will recognize someone born of a Jewish mother (regardless of their level of observance) as a Jew. There are three limited cases (that I can think of) where Orthodox Jews would not consider a Reform Jew to be Jewish. Those three cases are: 1. Someone who’se father was Jewish but whose mother wasn’t. Reform Judaism will recognize someone with one parent (either one) as Jewish provided they had a Jewish upbringing and education. Orthodox (and Conservative) Judaism would not recognize them as Jewish. (N.B. I have a cousin who fits this description.) 2. Someone who converted under non-Orthodox auspecies. Under _halacha_, the accpetence of the binding nature of the _mitzvos_ (commandments) is an indespensible condition of conversion. Since Reform views the _mitzvos_ as largely optional, their conversions are invalid under Jewish law. Therefore, someone converted under such circumstances would not be considered Jewish. (N.B. I have a another cousin [adopted] who fits this description as well.) 3. Someone descended from a mother who fits into one of the other two categories. Other than that, _all_ Orthodox Jews will recognize Reform Jews as Jews. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/47 "2005-06-24T18:23:00Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Despite the fact that that is often bandied about, it simply is not true. > > Every Orthodox Jew will recognize someone born of a Jewish mother (regardless of their level of observance) as a Jew. > > There are three limited cases (that I can think of) where Orthodox Jews would not consider a Reform Jew to be Jewish. Those three cases are: > > 1. Someone who’se father was Jewish but whose mother wasn’t. Reform Judaism will recognize someone with one parent (either one) as Jewish provided they had a Jewish upbringing and education. Orthodox (and Conservative) Judaism would not recognize them as Jewish. (N.B. I have a cousin who fits this description.) > > 2. Someone who converted under non-Orthodox auspecies. Under _halacha_, the accpetence of the binding nature of the _mitzvos_ (commandments) is an indespensible condition of conversion. Since Reform views the _mitzvos_ as largely optional, their conversions are invalid under Jewish law. Therefore, someone converted under such circumstances would not be considered Jewish. (N.B. I have a another cousin [adopted] who fits this description as well.) > > 3. Someone descended from a mother who fits into one of the other two categories. > > Other than that, _all_ Orthodox Jews will recognize Reform Jews as Jews. > > Zev Steinhardt What about [this?](http://www.orthodoxrabbis.org/halachic_ruling.htm) > [@](#): > > The Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada (Agudath Harabonim) hereby declares: Reform and Conservative are not Judaism at all. Their adherents are Jews, according to the Jewish Law, but their religion is not Judaism. > > \ > > Having been falsely led to believe by heretical leaders that Reform and Conservative are legitimate branches or denominations of Judaism, we urge you to be guided by this declaration, and withdraw from your affiliation with Reform and Conservative temples and their clergy. Do not hesitate to attend an Orthodox synagogue due to your inadequate observance of Judaism. Etcetra. Now it’s true that the Agudath Harabonim statement doesn’t say that Reform and Conservative Jews aren’t Jews (it explicitly says that they _are_, you’re correct), but it does say that they are “outside Torah” and that they are not practicing Judaism. Since my intention all along in this thread has been to address the _religious_ definition of Judaism, not the ethnic, then my original point should be rephrased but I believe it would still stand. To wit: There are _some_ ultra-Orthodox schools (and I realize that Agudath Harabonim does not speak for all Orthodox Jews) that say that even Reform and Conservative Jews _are not practicing Judaism_, so it’s hard to believe they would ever accept Messianic Judaism as Judaism, even though they would accept individual practioners as cultural “Jews.” And perhaps the entire discussion would be easier to parse if we made a distinction between what is _Judaism_ and who is “Jewish.” The whole question might be addressed by saying that whether or not Messianic Jews are culturally “Jewish,” it is safe to say that they are not _practicing Judaism,_ and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/48 "2005-06-24T18:28:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Now it’s true that the Agudath Harabonim statement doesn’t say that Reform and Conservative Jews aren’t Jews (it explicitly says that they _are_, you’re correct), This is true, (In their twisted way of looking at things) but your conclusion is Wrong. They are assholes to say this. However, under their defintion, a reform can in a matter of moments transform into a hchalachi-, I mean, whateveritiscalledagain jew. Not so for christians. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/49 "2005-06-24T18:49:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What about [this?](http://www.orthodoxrabbis.org/halachic_ruling.htm) You know, I was considering bringing that up in my response, but then I decided against it because I didn’t want to cloud the issue unnecessarily. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Now it’s true that the Agudath Harabonim statement doesn’t say that Reform and Conservative Jews aren’t Jews (it explicitly says that they _are_, you’re correct), but it does say that they are “outside Torah” and that they are not practicing Judaism. Since my intention all along in this thread has been to address the _religious_ definition of Judaism, not the ethnic, then my original point should be rephrased but I believe it would still stand. To wit: > > There are _some_ ultra-Orthodox schools (and I realize that Agudath Harabonim does not speak for all Orthodox Jews) that say that even Reform and Conservative Jews _are not practicing Judaism_, so it’s hard to believe they would ever accept Messianic Judaism as Judaism, even though they would accept individual practioners as cultural “Jews.” You are correct in what you state. It’s hard for many Orthodox Jews to recognize a Judaism without _Shabbos_, without _kashrus_ and without the binding nature of the commandments. That being said, I was simply responding your statement of: > [@](#): > > Hell, there are some ultra-Orthodox sects which don’t even think Reform Jews are Jews … which to me, reads on the individual level, not on the communal. IOW, Jews are Jews, whether they are observant or not. If they are Reform, they might not be observing Judaism _as Orthodox Judaism recognizes it_, but nonetheless, \*they are still Jews with all the rights and responsibilities that go with that status, regardless of the status of the brand of Judaism that they are practicing. Messianic Jews (and Jews who actively convert to Christianity or other religions) are _still_ Jews. However, with regard to certain laws, _halacha_ treats them as if they were non-Jews. But, in any event, if they wanted to return to Judaism, no conversion is necessary. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269/50 "2005-06-24T19:18:00Z")
> [@zev steinhardt](#): > > You are correct in what you state. It’s hard for many Orthodox Jews to recognize a Judaism without Shabbos, without kashrus and without the binding nature of the commandments. That being said, I was simply responding your statement of: > > > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > > Hell, there are some ultra-Orthodox sects which don’t even think Reform Jews are Jews. Right. Like I said, I phrased that badly. I should have said they don’t believe Reform Jews are _practicing Judaism_, not that they aren’t Jews. (And I agree with **Scott** that the entire tone of the statement is more than a little insulting to non-Orthodox Jews. Calling them “heretics” and their observance “inadequate” and “illegitimate” is hardly going to endear them to those denominations, but I guess it serves to underline the point about how they would regard Messianics)\* \*It should be said again that AH is not represenative of the views of the entire Orthodox movement, and that other Orthodox groups released their own statements disassociating themselves from the AH statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/messianic-jews/309269.md?page=2)