# Metacom, you're an idiot. Plain and simple. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 17, 2006, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337 "2006-01-17T07:22:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/61 "2006-01-17T19:15:34Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Sorry, but 15 or 50, you go about brandishing a gun, you get no sympathy from me when a cop or armed citizen puts you down. That’s your prerogative. 15 or 50, you go about waving a toy gun due to severe depression in order to get shot by the cops, you have my sympathy. It’s horrific to be so depressed that this seems like your best course of action. Do it when you’re 15, and I think that everyone ought to recognize that your decisionmaking capacity is incompletely formed compared to that of an adult. Again, I’m not saying the cops acted incorrectly. I’m saying that this is a tragedy, and that folks posturing about how the kid is a dumb fool who got what he deserved are behaving contemptibly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/62 "2006-01-17T19:20:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > That’s your prerogative. 15 or 50, you go about waving a toy gun due to severe depression in order to get shot by the cops, you have my sympathy. It’s horrific to be so depressed that this seems like your best course of action. Do it when you’re 15, and I think that everyone ought to recognize that your decisionmaking capacity is incompletely formed compared to that of an adult. > > Again, I’m not saying the cops acted incorrectly. I’m saying that this is a tragedy, and that folks posturing about how the kid is a dumb fool who got what he deserved are behaving contemptibly. > > Daniel Would you be this worked up about it if he had just hanged himself in his closet? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/63 "2006-01-17T19:37:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Would you be this worked up about it if he had just hanged himself in his closet? Would people be calling this kid “contemptible” if he’d just hanged himself in his closet? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/64 "2006-01-17T19:38:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Would you be this worked up about it if he had just hanged himself in his closet? If folks were calling him a dumb fool who got what he deserved? Sure. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/65 "2006-01-17T19:42:10Z")
What makes him contemptible is that he _didn’t_ just hang himself in his closet. He had to drag his whole school and the po-po into his drama. You think that deputy is going to feel _good_ for the rest of his life over killing that kid? You think the other kids, the teachers, et.al. are just going to shrug this off? I have no problem with him taking his own life but, frankly, it was contemptible for him to fuck with everybody else in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/66 "2006-01-17T19:49:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I have no problem with him taking his own life but, frankly, it was contemptible for him to fuck with everybody else in the process. You have no problem with him taking his own life? How compassionate and generous of you. It wasn’t contemptible for him to fuck with everybody else: it was insane and adolescent. It’s absurd not to recognize the difference. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/67 "2006-01-17T20:03:03Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I simply think that police should be willing to assume much more risk in situations such as this then you do. I think that, _overall_, it would result in far fewer deaths, although more police officers would likely die. I’ve been registered here since March of '03, nearly 3 years. Just paid my 2nd membership fee, and these two sentences are worth the entire cost. It just doesn’t get any better than this. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/68 "2006-01-17T20:04:50Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Or, it kills a Terrorist. It’s all good now, right? Technically, a terrorist _was_ killed. According to some reports, the young man had previously threatened to blow up a school bus. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/69 "2006-01-17T20:11:00Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What makes him contemptible is that he _didn’t_ just hang himself in his closet. He had to drag his whole school and the po-po into his drama. You think that deputy is going to feel _good_ for the rest of his life over killing that kid? You think the other kids, the teachers, et.al. are just going to shrug this off? I have no problem with him taking his own life but, frankly, it was contemptible for him to fuck with everybody else in the process. My disdain for the kid isn’t as obvious as the others, but this posts hits my feelings right on the head. The cop who fired the shot probably didn’t feel good about this when he thought the kid had a real gun. There’s every chance the parents are going to take this to court, really dragging the cop, the school, the police department, and whoever else happened to be standing nearby through a mess. He left a massive shitpile behind because he couldn’t take it anymore. I have absolutely zero sympathy for him. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/70 "2006-01-17T21:02:11Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > You have no problem with him taking his own life? How compassionate and generous of you. It wasn’t contemptible for him to fuck with everybody else: it was insane and adolescent. It’s absurd not to recognize the difference. > > Daniel Good grief. I hope you have some fancy shoes with air-cushioned soles for dismounting that high horse you’re on. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/71 "2006-01-17T22:01:55Z")
Until we’ve actually confirmed that the police were even told the gun it was fake prior to the shooting I have to wonder why we continue to dwell on that. The police department has said the father was mistaken, that he called in to the police (he was never on the scene prior to the shooting, that much is pretty well known) after the shooting had already occurred. The father in his own words has said that he called the police after “hearing about” an incident involving his son down at the school. I doubt that word had gotten out along the grapevine until this whole situation had already ended. The father was probably hoping like hell nothing had happened when he called in, but more than likely his call was indeed too little and too late. I do feel sorry for the kid. Obviously he lead an unhappy life and was picked on enough that it greatly negatively affected him. However bad your life is, though, that doesn’t make it anything other than contemptible to put other people through something like this. And I’ll second the sentiments expressed about the whole “shoot after you’ve been shot at” bullshit. Jack Bauer wouldn’t have disarmed the kid, he’d have shot the kid’s _gun_ and destroyed it, ending the situation. Sadly the SWAT team member wasn’t a character in a work of fiction, nor was he born with Green Arrow’s superhuman abilities, he had to go into that situation as a real honest-to-god flesh and blood human being. Not in a world where, as the protagonist he is unlikely to die, but in the real world where _any_ bullet wound could kill. Not GTA-San Andreas where your body armor has to be destroyed before your actual body can be hurt, but the real world where body armor doesn’t protect you from everything and where sometimes it can even fail completely. I’ll second what Thalion said, he’s paid to indeed take some risks the average citizen isn’t expected to do, he’s sure as hell not paid to take _suicidal_ risks. Even the most hardcore black-ops agents serving with Delta Force or the Navy SEALs don’t do the kind of sole suicide mission insanity you find in a video game. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/72 "2006-01-17T22:44:15Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Technically, a terrorist _was_ killed. According to some reports, the young man had previously threatened to blow up a school bus. Man, those planes are flying low today… ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/73 "2006-01-17T23:11:07Z")
I don’t buy in the least that such a policy would result in fewer deaths overall, but even if I accepted for the sake of the argument that “fewer people would die overall, but more of them would be police officers” it wouldn’t be a good rationale, to put it very mildly. A person who points a deadly weapon or reasonable fascimile thereof at any other person, police officer included, is creating a deadly threat to human life. It’s unfortunate and tragic if that arises from that person’s mental illness, but you can’t ask someone to give up their life (and if they’re charged with keeping the peace, the lives of those around them) because of another person’s mental illness. Requiring those acting in self defense or in defense of another to make an infallable split-second call as to whether that danger is real or simulated is unfair, unrealistic and unworkable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/74 "2006-01-17T23:16:06Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > Good grief. I hope you have some fancy shoes with air-cushioned soles for dismounting that high horse you’re on. Fuck you, dumbass. That’s never a clever thing to say, and it’s typically said by people showing themselves to lack basic human compassion. It’s not a “high horse” to feel sympathy for a teenager so depressed that he committed suicide; it’s called having a heart. Jesus, some folks suck. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/75 "2006-01-17T23:18:38Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > And I think that’s a problem with the culture of law enforcement in this country. It’s too cowboy (come to think of it, that might be a problem with the culture of this country in general). I tend to agree with you about the culture of the country in general, but would more dead cops be an improvement? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/76 "2006-01-17T23:28:53Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I simply think that police should be willing to assume much more risk in situations such as this then you do. I think that, _overall_, it would result in far fewer deaths, although more police officers would likely die. > > I don’t think police should allow themselves to be shot at in general–for example, if some random man on the street pulls a gun and aims it at them, I think they’d be justified in shooting him. But this case wasn’t a random man. The police (collectively) had been told that the gun wasn’t real, and it was obviously a suicide by cop. I think this warrants the police giving the kid the benefit of the doubt _in this set of circumstances_. > > I think the bullet points in the OP present my position unfairly–they make it seem like the positions are seperate from each other, when they’re not. The cops should have allowed him one shot _in this situation_. The cops should have been more willing to risk their lives _in situations like that_, etc. > > Obviously, the officer’s adrenaline was pumping and it was a very tense situation, and it would have taken a great deal of courage to not shoot the kid. I don’t know what I would have done in such a situation–probably would have shot, given that that’s what I would have been trained to do. And I think that’s a problem with the culture of law enforcement in this country. It’s too cowboy (come to think of it, that might be a problem with the culture of this country in general). > > I have to go to work, and I’m going to pussy out of this pit thread too, but of all the times I’ve been insulted on the Dope this pitting will bother me the least. I value that kids life just as much as the officers; you can call me an idiot and tell me I’m full of shit for my opinion about this all you want, but I stand by what I’ve said and I’m not ashamed of my beliefs. It’s your opiniion, and however wrong I may feel it is, you’re more than welcome to it. Having said that, when do you plan to volunteer to take the “one bullet” from deranged people who are allegedly armed only with some form of realistic firearm looking replica? Because until you are willing to take that bullet yourself, I don’t see where you get the stones to tell others they have to. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/77 "2006-01-17T23:58:35Z")
No one is saying, “Yay, they killed the kid,” and I’m sure that everyone here wishes that the boy wasn’t troubled so much so as to be driven to this point. But however well we may wish him to fare are (rightfully, IMO) forgotten when he points a gun at an innocent person, whether it be an armored Marine or a toddler. He may have actually been a good guy, and for all we know, he would have gone on to cure cancer. But when the life of an innocent person is in immediate danger, there can no longer be any what-ifs, unless we are willing to start sacrificing the lives of innocent bystanders to make sure that a suspect means business. This is independant of any motive, reasonable or not. As for calling him dumb, I don’t much sympathize with him, considering he created a situation in which guns were drawn in a school. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/78 "2006-01-17T23:59:53Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Fuck you, dumbass. That’s never a clever thing to say, and it’s typically said by people showing themselves to lack basic human compassion. It’s not a “high horse” to feel sympathy for a teenager so depressed that he committed suicide; it’s called having a heart. > > Jesus, some folks suck. > > Daniel Please. I feel bad for the kid. The whole thing is a tragedy. Could have been more tragic had the kid shot a few eyes out before they took him down. I don’t have a problem with you in general. We’re usually on the same side of the issue. What I object to is your untenable position that because the kid was suicidal rather than nuts the police should react to him differently. This situation is remarkably simple, a fifteen year old kid pointed what looked like a gun at an officer and was shot down. Suicidal or not, it really wasn’t a smart thing to do. Your tone in almost every post in this thread makes me think it would save you a lot of time if you just put “LOOK AT ME! I’M COMPASSIONATE!” in your sig and just post “see below” every time. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/79 "2006-01-18T00:00:02Z")
> [@Troy McClure SF](#): > > He may have actually been a good guy, and for all we know, he would have gone on to cure cancer. But when the life of an innocent person is in immediate danger, there can no longer be any what-ifs, unless we are willing to start sacrificing the lives of innocent bystanders to make sure that a suspect means business. This is independant of any motive, reasonable or not. > > As for calling him dumb, I don’t much sympathize with him, considering he created a situation in which guns were drawn in a school. I agree with the first paragraph, but don’t see why we can’t agree that the shot was correctly fired and also feel sympathy for a boy tortured by insanity to the point where he did this. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337/80 "2006-01-18T00:18:18Z")
In short, 1. He’s not innocent B) He brought others down with him (not by killing, but no one in that town is ever going to look back on this fondly) III) Hi Opal. It’s a shame that he was driven to this point, but he ultimately brought this upon himself and everyone in that building, especially the person who has to live with his life on his conscience forever. Plus, I persoanlly think that saying “poor kid” smacks of absoving him of personal responsibility, a pet peeve of mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metacom-youre-an-idiot-plain-and-simple/340337.md?page=5)