# Metallica, Red Hot Chili Peppers & others reject Apple's iTunes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249 "2003-07-04T16:01:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/1 "2003-07-04T16:01:28Z")
From here: [http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/02/technology/itunes.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes](http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/02/technology/itunes.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes) > [@](#): > > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Rock bands The Red Hot Chili Peppers and Metallica are refusing to make their music available as individual downloads on Apple Computer Inc’s iTunes online music store, a representative for the bands, said Wednesday… > > “Our artists would rather not contribute to the demise of the album format,” said Mark Reiter, with Q Prime Management Co., which manages the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Metallica and several other artists. Read this as, “Instead of letting people download the one song they really like for $1, we want them to spend $18 on a full CD of crap instead.” > [@](#): > > According to Reiter, Apple refuses to sell albums in their entirety unless the artists also allow the tracks on the album to be sold independently as digital downloads. > > “We can’t let a distributor dictate the way our artists sell their music,” Reiter said, adding that the business terms were otherwise acceptable. So I suppose they would prefer the “illegal” downloaders from Kazaa, WinMX et al to dictate the market instead? Because that’s what is happening right now. The overwhelming success & popularity of file-sharing programs is **absolute proof** that that’s what the people want, and a billion RIAA lawsuits won’t change that. > [@](#): > > Calling the issue **more a “creative issue than a financial issue,”** Reiter said the artists felt that if consumers can download their singles, they are less apt to buy entire albums. [bolding mine] Well, is anyone else’s “Bullshit Meter” going off like crazy? Because mine sure is. BTW I would have paid $1 (or even more) for “Higher Ground”, the only RHCP song that I like. I guess I’ll be downloading their whole Greatest Hits CD this weekend, as an act of protest. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/2 "2003-07-04T16:03:07Z")
P.S. I hope my comments weren’t too “Pit-ish” for this forum. I really had to restrain myself while typing. ---
**Author:** ![Paco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Paco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paco)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/3 "2003-07-04T16:11:07Z")
I also think they are pretty ridiculous. I wasn’t that much into music before p2p and now I really am. I still won’t pay 20 bucks for ANYBODY’s album so once free p2p is gone then I won’t be into music anymore. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/4 "2003-07-04T16:28:05Z")
I don’t understand the anger. Their songs, they should get to choose how they’re packaged and sold. Do you have the same reaction when the store makes you take home all 4 sticks of butter instead of the 1 you need? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/5 "2003-07-04T16:43:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarinth \* > \*\*Do you have the same reaction when the store makes you take home all 4 sticks of butter instead of the 1 you need? \*\* No, because I’m gonna use all that butter, eventually. And it’s only $4.50 or so (at most) as opposed to $18+ for a CD. (Yeah, I know it’s possible to buy them cheaper, esp. used, and I do. But I’ve yet to find RHCP’s greatest hits CD for $1.99…) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/6 "2003-07-04T16:47:48Z")
There’s only one way to deal with it AFAICS. Don’t give the fuckers any of your money ever again. If enough people did this they’d change PDQ. Not going to happen though. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/7 "2003-07-04T16:49:28Z")
Straight after posting this I realised I have a ticket for Metallica concert in a few months. Doh! :wally ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/8 "2003-07-04T17:00:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarinth \* > \*\*I don’t understand the anger. > > Their songs, they should get to choose how they’re packaged and sold. > > Do you have the same reaction when the store makes you take home all 4 sticks of butter instead of the 1 you need? \*\* Well, hypocrisy and stupidity do make some people angry. Not a financial decision? Yeah, right. And they are passing up their last best chance to have some control over how the songs are distributed. Otherwise, people will just download their songs from Kazaa and not give them _any_ money. If it’s so important that a song be heard in the context of the entire album, why release singles? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/9 "2003-07-04T17:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paco \* > \*\*I also think they are pretty ridiculous. I wasn’t that much into music before p2p and now I really am. I still won’t pay 20 bucks for ANYBODY’s album so once free p2p is gone then I won’t be into music anymore. \*\* So basically, you didn’t buy music before, you don’t buy music now and you won’t buy music in the future. You’ll make a massive impact on their bottom line. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/10 "2003-07-04T17:25:24Z")
I have to say I rarely buy CDs, I have in the past used p2p, and would use iTunes if it were available through Windows format. Yes p2p is free, but it _is_ theft. People can try to justify it any way they like, but it is stealing. I’d much rather get the music I want legitimately for a reasonable fee, as well as getting a reliable download speed and quality (which is difficult on some p2p networks). ---
**Author:** ![Forty-Six\_Two](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/919ad9/32.png) [@Forty-Six\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forty-Six_Two)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/11 "2003-07-04T17:29:56Z")
**KGS** - Most of my, ahem… friends… yes, that’s it… my friends actually go out of their way to steal complete albums from p2p programs, and not just the single of the moment. Especially with bands like Metallica and RHCP, who aren’t shallow pop music. The real problem as I see it is the generation of kids being brought up with almost zero attention span. They’ll like whatever radio or MTV tells them to, and they love flavor-of-the month pop anthems, leading them to try and collect them all via a p2p program. When you get deeper artists such as Metallica or RHCP (both of which I happen to be quite a big fan of), you find more involved albums that are meant to be taken as a whole. Oh, and BTW, I bought Metallica’s latest, “St. Anger” for 11 bucks at Tower Records the day it came out. I’ve noticed CD prices, especially for the music I like, are starting to actually go down. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/12 "2003-07-04T17:51:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*So basically, you didn’t buy music before, you don’t buy music now and you won’t buy music in the future. You’ll make a massive impact on their bottom line. 🙂 \*\* Yes, because the RIAA claims that every song that Paco downloaded represents a financial loss to them. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Priam_ > **I have to say I rarely buy CDs . . . I’d much rather get the music I want legitimately for a reasonable fee, as well as getting a reliable download speed and quality (which is difficult on some p2p networks).** I’d venture to guess that the same goes for the vast majority of p2p users–thus demonstrating that they are not simply trying to avoid paying altogether. Set up a reasonable payment structure, and they’ll pay–but luddite bands like Metallica don’t seem to understand that. Maybe downloading a song for free vs. a nominal fee is a moral question, but the decision whether to spend $18 for an album when most of the content can be had for free is a matter of basic economics. No matter how threatening the RIAA gets, I don’t think demand for CDs will ever go back up to previous levels. They’re becoming an outdated medium, and albums themselves are becoming an outdated format. ---
**Author:** ![Paco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Paco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paco)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/13 "2003-07-04T18:03:47Z")
Grey you are exactly right. I will just listen to the radio more. I would probably pay if it was like a flat per month or year fee. Like 20 bucks a month and I could download all the songs I want. Paying per song would be out of the question for me. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/14 "2003-07-04T22:29:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Forty-Six&Two \* > **KGS- Most of my, ahem… friends… yes, that’s it… my friends actually go out of their way to steal complete albums from p2p programs, and not just the single of the moment.** Yes, I know people like that too, and indeed, if I had a high-speed 'Net connection, I’d certainly have quite a library of full albums by now. But I’d still buy CDs, _when I could afford them._ My problem is, I have musical tastes that are so varied and wide, that my “Need It” list grows faster than my budget can keep up with. If I were filthy rich, and could _afford_ to buy every piece of music that interests me, I would have no need for downloading mp3s. None whatsoever. Well, maybe for super-rare, OOP stuff. And bootlegs. 😉 > [@](#): > > **When you get deeper artists such as Metallica or RHCP (both of which I happen to be quite a big fan of), you find more involved albums that are meant to be taken as a whole.** While Metallica certainly has fully sold out and become nothing but a “corporate rock” band by now (like U2 and Van Halen, minus the Napster-bashing), it’s absolutely true that they were AWESOME back in the day. And I definitely recognize RHCP as a seriously talented band, I just don’t “get” much of their music. (Indeed, I just found out that “Higher Ground” – the only song by them I truly like, and in fact the only one I’ve bothered to score on mp3 – isn’t their song, but a Stevie Wonder cover. So there you go.) I certainly would never accuse RHCP of being “shallow pop”, even on their most successful albums. Still…it’s a matter of choice. I’ve heard enough RHCP to know that they aren’t a band I’m interested enough in hearing a full CD by them; heck, not even a “greatest hits” record. And I totally resent that article’s implication that I should be _required_ to buy a full RHCP CD, because they say I should. I want the CHOICE of only purchasing one song that I like…or, barring that, illegally downloading it for free, with no penalties or cost whatsoever. (Which, indeed, is what’s driving the whole Napster/Kazaa thing.) In fact, after re-reading that article again, I’m wondering if that’s really the band’s choice, OR the management who represents them. Certainly, Metallica is behind it. Lars & Co. has been against the whole idea of file-sharing since it started. So if they wanted this Reiter guy to become their “mouthpiece” (smart move, if it’s true), then perhaps RHCP, Green Day, and Linkin Park are being _forced_ to come along, merely because they are “owned” by the same management company. Remember, MOST pop bands have absolutely NO control over their career. Marketing decisions, and in some cases even their music, is typically decided by “the suits.” Metallica is a unique case, because their original contract w/ Elektra contained a FULL “artistic freedom” clause, which is VERY RARE for any band. And that was back when they really did make good music, and had very positive morals that I agreed with. (“We won’t make a music video” and all that.) Boy, how the mighty have fallen. Oh, and it’s typical for newly released CDs to have deep discounts, esp. from the major vendors. Did you check to see how much “Ride the Lightning” costs these days? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/15 "2003-07-05T03:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > \*\* My problem is, I have musical tastes that are so varied and wide, that my “Need It” list grows faster than my budget can keep up with. If I were filthy rich, and could _afford_ to buy every piece of music that interests me, I would have no need for downloading mp3s. \*\* “If I had money I wouldn’t steal.” It also seems you have a disconnect between need and want. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > **And I totally resent that article’s implication that I should be _required_ to buy a full RHCP CD, because they say I should. I want the CHOICE of only purchasing one song that I like…or, barring that, illegally downloading it for free, with no penalties or cost whatsoever. (Which, indeed, is what’s driving the whole Napster/Kazaa thing.)** Let’s all give thanks then that you’re not running out to public libraries and going through the short story anthologies and ripping out your particular favorites > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > \*\* Remember, MOST pop bands have absolutely NO control over their career. Marketing decisions, and in some cases even their music, is typically decided by “the suits.” \*\* Oh the evil “suits”. Man I hate when those evil “suits” try to control their business models. Power to the bands with no money, some talent and no way to get it to a mass market for appreciation. If only the “suits” would provide that type of thing and then selflessly refuse payment. Here, you want a better way? How’s this? Set up digital libraries where, for access the entire network, you pay your monthly/yearly fee (you would right?). You may then selectively browse the files. The library system pays the copyright holders the same way they currently do for books. Heck they could even include their current crops of journals and books. The downside is that there is no way to prevent free spirits like yourself from screwing the system over by copying the material on their own and then distributing it. Unless the size and ease of use of the digital library network is sufficient to make people use it instead. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/16 "2003-07-05T04:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > Oh the evil “suits? Man I hate when those evil “suits?try to control their business models. Power to the bands with no money, some talent and no way to get it to a mass market for appreciation. If only the “suits?would provide that type of thing and then selflessly refuse payment. But with peer to peer available, the suits’ services aren’t needed in the first place, and I suspect this is what truly frightens them. The middleman in any transaction will always promote inefficiency, in order to carve out and preserve a safe little corner where it can latch on to the body of its dual host–the folks who actually produce, and the folks who actually buy. The middleman is a necessary evil at best, and a self-interested parasite at worst. Why should we care if p2p is wrecking their outdated business models? Buggy whip manufacturers have fallen on hard times as well. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/17 "2003-07-05T04:42:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > **"If I had money I wouldn’t steal." It also seems you have a disconnect between need and want.** Except, from _my_ perspective, it is the record labels that have been stealing from ME all these years (and the musicians who create the music, too) by introducing new formats, remastered CDs, etc. Plus that long period of time where I really did have to buy a whole CD to get the one song I liked. (Thank God _those_ days are over!) > [@](#): > > **Let’s all give thanks then that you’re not running out to public libraries and going through the short story anthologies and ripping out your particular favorites.** Why rip them out, when I can just photocopy them? 😃 But I don’t read short stories much, so that’s not a big problem. > [@](#): > > **Here, you want a better way? How’s this? Set up digital libraries where, for access the entire network, you pay your monthly/yearly fee (you would right?). You may then selectively browse the files. The library system pays the copyright holders the same way they currently do for books. Heck they could even include their current crops of journals and books. The downside is that there is no way to prevent free spirits like yourself from screwing the system over by copying the material on their own and then distributing it.** Which is kinda how Napster would have worked, if the record companies had embraced it and made it official (and yes, as a pay service) and is basically what Steve Jobs is trying to do with iTunes right now. The RIAA keeps saying that people will NOT pay for downloading songs if they can get it for free. But…_how do they know that, if no pay-per-download service exists???_ Really, iTunes is the only one right now that models the same thing Napster did, and Kazaa/etc. is doing right now, except it is legal AND not free. But if certain artists _don’t_ agree to be part of the experiment, then…how will we ever know? I think what really scares the record companies is that a service like iTunes, if it’s allowed to cover ALL songs from ALL genres of music, WILL take off like a rocket. And then they’ll have to eat shit over it. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/18 "2003-07-05T05:03:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > **Except, from _my_ perspective, it is the record labels that have been stealing from ME all these years (and the musicians who create the music, too) by introducing new formats, remastered CDs, etc. Plus that long period of time where I really did have to buy a whole CD to get the one song I liked. (Thank God _those_ days are over!)** How on earth do any of these examples equal theft? You always had a simple choice; if you didn’t like the way they were offering their music you didn’t have to buy it. You seem to think that you are entitled to get the music you want in the format you want for the price you want. Since that’s not the way the world works, that somehows justifies theft? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/19 "2003-07-05T05:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cckerberos \*How on earth do any of these examples equal theft? You always had a simple choice; if you didn’t like the way they were offering their music you didn’t have to buy it. **You seem to think that you are entitled to get the music you want in the format you want for the price you want.** Since that’s not the way the world works, that somehows justifies theft? [emphasis mine] While I wouldn’t use the world “entitled”, I think I’d have a much better opinion of the music industry as a whole, if they listened to _what the people really want_ instead of trying to preserve their antiquated business model with pseudo-terrorist threats like, say, blowing up people’s computers and stuff. And like it or not, this IS how the world works. Why do you think people pay for illegal drugs, illegal gambling, and illegal sex?? Because, _that is what they want!!_ The legality and morality of it does not apply, when you look at it from a purely economic standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249/20 "2003-07-05T05:54:25Z")
So if an artist composes an important work (to him), which uses an album-length format to tell a complete story or to make a political point, you want to force him to sell it bit by bit, thus destroying the artistic impression he was trying to make? I don’t agree. An artist should have the right to control the distribution of his work. Should a sculptor be forced to sell copies of his sculpure with pieces missing? How about a writer being forced to sell his book chapter by chapter? My view is: An artist has the right to sell his work in album form only. But he’s playing a dangerous game, because if his ‘vision’ is trite or he isn’t talented enough to write decent album-length epics, then no one will buy his stuff. You want choice? That’s your REAL choice. If someone makes music you like, you either buy it on his terms, or you decide the terms are unacceptable and don’t listen to it. But your desire for ‘choice’ does not override the property rights of the creator. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metallica-red-hot-chili-peppers-others-reject-apples-itunes/186249.md?page=2)