# \#MeToo backlash is hurting women (Bloomberg article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626 "2018-12-05T19:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/201 "2018-12-06T20:48:49Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Ah, so you suffer from sexist bigotry you can’t overcome in interactions with others. I pity you for that. BFB. You’re not new here but you don’t post a lot. Because of that I’ll go easy on you. Stop personalizing and insulting other posters. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/202 "2018-12-06T20:49:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The “Pence Rule” is about women specifically, and thus the “Pence Rule” applied to all employees is like “racism” applied to all races – nonsense. My interpretation of the “Pence Rule” is about more than just avoiding sexual harassment allegations. It’s also to avoid rumors/accusations/speculation of being involved in an affair. At least that’s the main reason I’ve applied it. Since I treat everyone with respect, I’m not afraid of a (credible) sexual harassment allegation. But, I know how the rumor mill is at my workplace, and I don’t want my name circulating in it - especially when there are people here who would love to be associated with me in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/203 "2018-12-06T20:51:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This may be the wisest thing you have ever said on these boards. 🙂 I’m not sure if this makes me happy or sad 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/204 "2018-12-06T20:51:27Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Because, if you aren’t an asshole, the false ones are the ones that worry you. You are happy they get all the bastards, but the ones against good guys are the ones that could, improbably, hit you. 😕 Why are we non-assholes supposed to be not worried about the existence of lots of true accusations? Why shouldn’t we worry about the fact that a lot of people have suffered from the behavior that caused those true accusations? And why shouldn’t we worry about whether all those true accusations are actually resulting in “getting all the bastards”, as you put it? Because here in the real world, it is definitely not guaranteed that a true accusation will result in “getting the bastard”. ISTM that if we are only worried about being “hit” with a possible false accusation, and aren’t giving a shit about the suffering experienced by the victims who are making all the **true** accusations, that is in fact somewhat indicative of being an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/205 "2018-12-06T20:56:25Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > This is not true. Of all of the men I’ve known in my life including me, no accusations have ever been made. Either my circle of family and friends is extremely lucky, or alternatively, we aren’t creeps that take liberties with women we work with. I’m going with option B. > > It’s not hard to not harass women. This is only a scary issue to men that have engaged in questionable behaviors in the past and are now worried that maybe some of the creepy stuff they’ve done may come to light. Well then your damn lucky. I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager. Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday. Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc… ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/206 "2018-12-06T20:58:59Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > False dichotomy. > > I’m not saying “Don’t believe women.” Okay… Then, as you said that “believe women” is the same as “don’t believe men”, then are you saying that you don’t believe men? > [@](#): > > I’m saying that demonstrating how woke you are by insisting on action now, or that only dealing with things by going to HR instead of going first to the coworker themselves or their boss, is believing that women are never wrong, mistaken, or malicious, and that’s not right. I’m saying that demonstrating how edgy you are by complaining about people being “woke” enough to follow their company procedures is “not right.” > [@](#): > > MeToo hasn’t morphed into “believe all women,” it’s morphing into “If you don’t take immediate action that’s publicly visible, you’re showing you don’t believe women.” I disagree. I agree that there is hyperbolic reaction to a pretty simple concept that women should be treated with the same dignity and respect as you would a man that claims what you said, but that has less support to it than your feared accusations of misconduct. > [@](#): > > Pendulum’s too far for justice and fairness. Particularly the public part bothers me. A private reprimand- or even a private “Hey Paul, someone took that remark as sexual and this is how and why. You understand that you shouldn’t do that, even if it didn’t used to be that way?” is acceptable to actually correct behavior. Even a “Hey, Paul, I find that kind of offensive.” Not “Paul should be publically reprimanded.” And why are you saying that this doesn’t happen any more? You examples are high profile people, public figures with a reputation both for themselves, and those who pay them and provide them a platform. If they are subject to extended scrutiny, well, that is part of the price of the privilege of being a public figure. But your claim here is that people are being “publicly reprimanded” or just being up and fired for a single claim, and that is just not true. You would get in quite a bit of trouble for doing something like that. You _do_ need to show a pattern of behavior in order to fire someone with cause. that is what documentation of performance and discipline comes in. You may be used to fly by night workplaces where they don’t follow procedures, and that may be what you are confused, and it that is the cae, I feel for you, but it is a problem that you are in an unprofessional work environment, not that professional work environments exist. If someone steals from the office supply room, or from petty cash, and is accused, are they “publicly reprimanded?” > [@](#): > > I had a coworker rush another coworker to the hospital at 1am (we are 24 hour) with a heart attack because there was no-one on site that could use the defibrillator. Saved her life, apparently, but was a complete violation of the safety guidelines. So he had a private “Don’t do that” from his boss, and we all had to take safety training. No names were ever named publically. That’s a fair handling of an honest error. Okay, and this anecdote pertains to what now? I had an employee pass out and hit the floor a couple years ago. I called 911 and followed their instructions until EMTs arrived. Ah workplace anecdotes. But, lets get back to the topic of the thread. > [@](#): > > [Warning: Telling a Lame Joke in an Elevator can Endanger Your Career](https://quillette.com/2018/11/23/warning-telling-a-lame-joke-in-an-elevator-can-endanger-your-career/) This is an example of a generational reference being taken as sexualized, and therefore offensive. They investigated (fair), concluded he had done nothing inappropriate and she had misunderstood him (OK), and fired him anyway (ridiculous). Right, they fired him after he followed all of their advice and instructions. Err, wait, that’s not what your cite says at all. It says that he complained about the complaint, and then refused to follow their instructions. Hmmm, do you think that talking back and refusing to follow instructions from your boss goes well for your career? As whiny as that article was, I can certainly see why his superiors took an opportunity to get rid of him. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/207 "2018-12-06T20:59:20Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Although he might think there was nothing wrong with it, that’s just because he doesn’t realize he’s making a sexist comment. He likely only complements women and not men. He likely has never made a similar comment about a guy looking good in jeans. He may also do similar things like complement a woman coworker’s hair, makeup, top, etc. Unless he is truly in the habit of complementing both men and women on their appearance, his “complements” likely have a sexual undertone. Yes, I can see that. He should not have said it I agree especially where he worked. But I dont think its a firable offense and I feel if the women truly felt bad she should have told him privately first instead of running to HR. HR should be the LAST resort instead of the first. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/208 "2018-12-06T21:00:40Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/209 "2018-12-06T21:00:40Z")
Jesus. We’re really going with: “I don’t harass women, so if a woman accused me of harassment it would be false, therefore I don’t give a shit about true accusations of harassment, I only care about false accusations of harassment.” That’s what we’re doing? And guess what? If you’re the boss at a workplace, and your standard is that you’d rather dismiss 100 true harassment complaints than believe one false harassment complaint, then maybe being a boss is not for you. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/210 "2018-12-06T21:01:43Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well then your damn lucky. > > I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager. > Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday. > Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc… Do you view all of your coworkers as “female coworker” or “male coworker”, or do you just view all of your coworkers as just coworkers? If I’m telling a story to my family or friends about work I don’t say “my female coworker did this” or “my male coworker said this”. I simply say my coworker. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/211 "2018-12-06T21:02:31Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > My interpretation of the “Pence Rule” is about more than just avoiding sexual harassment allegations. It’s also to avoid rumors/accusations/speculation of being involved in an affair. At least that’s the main reason I’ve applied it. The Pence Rule is actually more about the assumption that a man innocently being with a woman, even in a professional setting, is somehow an offense against his wife. It’s not about liability or risk – it’s about a fringe Christian believe that sees women as having an agenda to tempt men into evil. It’s just straight up, 100% sexism. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/212 "2018-12-06T21:03:28Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well then your damn lucky. > > I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager. Yes, thee are many women who will tolerate sexual harassment without complaint. That’s not actually good thing. > [@](#): > > Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday. As well as working with men means that they have opportunities for raises, promotions, and advancement of their career. > [@](#): > > Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc… Hmmm, we keep different company. I’ve seen women who tolerate sexual harassment because otherwise, they don’t have a job, but I’ve never, ever, met a woman like you last described. Do they tell you this, or is it your assumption as to why they make these accusations that you refuse to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/213 "2018-12-06T21:04:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, they fired him after he followed all of their advice and instructions. > > Err, wait, that’s not what your cite says at all. It says that he complained about the complaint, and then refused to follow their instructions. > > Hmmm, do you think that talking back and refusing to follow instructions from your boss goes well for your career? As whiny as that article was, I can certainly see why his superiors took an opportunity to get rid of him. Are you sure he got fired? I don’t see that in the article or other articles about that incident. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/214 "2018-12-06T21:07:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc… Really? Really? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/215 "2018-12-06T21:09:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yes, I can see that. He should not have said it I agree especially where he worked. But I dont think its a firable offense and I feel if the women truly felt bad she should have told him privately first instead of running to HR. > > HR should be the LAST resort instead of the first. So, a person is creeping someone out in the workplace, and it is on the person who feels threatened or intimidated by the person to confront that person. No, that is exactly the reason that we have HR. I explicitly tell my employees that if they have a complaint about another employee, they should bring it to me or another manager, not to deal with it themselves. Employees handling work related social issues _never_ turns out well. I mean, sometimes it works out well for the bully, but never for the victim. And it is not a fireable offense. If one of my employees came and complained about a sexual harassment issue, I would document it with them. then I would talk to the individual, and document it with them. I would let them know what is and is not acceptable in the workplace, and how in cases like this, perception is reality. After I have had a documented conversation with him about social interactions in the workplace, then if he does it again, _then_ it is a fireable offense. If he really got fired for the first time out of the blue like that, you should talk to him about collecting unemployment. If what you say is true of his situation, he would easily win. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/216 "2018-12-06T21:11:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Are you sure he got fired? I don’t see that in the article or other articles about that incident. I was taking the posters word on it. I saw that he was censured, but I really didn’t investigate the article too hard, as it was just whining and whining. If he wasn’t even fired, then not only was the poster I was responding to sorely mistaken, but the person he is defending is even more of a whiner. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/217 "2018-12-06T21:11:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Pence Rule is actually more about the assumption that a man innocently being with a woman, even in a professional setting, is somehow an offense against his wife. It’s not about liability or risk – it’s about a fringe Christian believe that sees women as having an agenda to tempt men into evil. It’s just straight up, 100% sexism. Well, okay. That might be true. I had my own version of the “Pence Rule” long before anyone had ever heard of Mike Pence, and it wasn’t based on all that. My mistake for using that term in this thread, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/218 "2018-12-06T21:12:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I was taking the posters word on it. I saw that he was censured, but I really didn’t investigate the article too hard, as it was just whining and whining. > > If he wasn’t even fired, then not only was the poster I was responding to sorely mistaken, but the person he is defending is even more of a whiner. That’s cool, I was just wondering if I didn’t see it. But yes, the posters characterization of the article is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/219 "2018-12-06T21:13:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Because we both know no one here would actually say, “I think due process is dumb and we should not do it,” and we both know that. > > But people here are content with #MeToo as it is which, I have already showed, runs roughshod over due process. And who are you accusing of dissembling in this fashion? Are your accusations with merit, or are you making them with no evidence? If I say to a woman, “Hey, you are looking good in that short skirt.” then apparently that should be interpreted as simply a neutral observation about her appearance. But, if here, in a thread, we say that we shouldn’t dismissis women’s stories and experiences out of hand, that is saying that “I think due process is dumb and we should not do it,” With that sort of accusation so quick at your fingertips, it is small wonder that you believe that others are as quick to accuse, and with as little evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/220 "2018-12-06T21:20:10Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > “Because standards are changing and there’s no longer a presupposition of innocent error, business people are ensuring that even conversations about the weather can’t happen when there’s a chance of an unintended slipup.” But, once again, the available evidence we have, however tentative, indicates that false allegations are really rare. At least within the legal system, we’re looking at 2-10% of rape allegations being false - which, given the rarity of such allegations to begin with, leads to a very low number. If there is _any_ evidence that false allegations of harassment are common in business environments, I have yet to see it. In terms of things to worry about at work, “I might be falsely accused of harassment” has _no business_ being near the top of anyone’s list. It’s like if stewardesses’ biggest fear on the job was being murdered by a passenger while en route - we’d be laughing at them, mocking them for being afraid of ghosts. And yet, here we have a bunch of (allegedly) adult men _pissing themselves_ over the idea that this could happen to them, and instituting harmful, sexist social rules to avoid any risk. Maybe it’s just male fragility (analogue to [white fragility](https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2017/12/15/white-fragility-word-of-the-year-2017-shortlist/)) - they’re so used to never having to deal with any kind of gender-based risk that the moment something they can remotely relate to turns up, it freaks them the hell out. Over what? How often does this happen? And given that men report being sexually harassed at work at a rate of about 10%, why aren’t we implementing the Pence Rule towards _men_ as well? And let’s not get started on things like workplace bullying, where men are far more likely to be bullied by men than by women - and we know workplace bullying is a thing that _actually happens_ with some regularity. This whole thing is a bit like never hiring black people because they’re technically more likely to be criminals - it’s using bad statistics to gin up a mostly-fabricated fear that makes things worse for a marginalized group. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=12)