# \#MeToo backlash is hurting women (Bloomberg article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626 "2018-12-05T19:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/241 "2018-12-07T02:43:38Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > [Warning: Telling a Lame Joke in an Elevator can Endanger Your Career](https://quillette.com/2018/11/23/warning-telling-a-lame-joke-in-an-elevator-can-endanger-your-career/) This is an example of a generational reference being taken as sexualized, and therefore offensive. They investigated (fair), concluded he had done nothing inappropriate and she had misunderstood him (OK), and fired him anyway (ridiculous). Have you re-read that link to see how your summary of it might be a little off? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/242 "2018-12-07T03:11:14Z")
#metoo exists because the old way of “just believing some women when they deserve to be believed” didn’t work. Just talking to the person instead of tattling to HR didn’t work. Appeals to existing structures didn’t work. Everyone’s suggestions for what to do instead of #metoo-world solutions are ultimately about going back to the status quo. That’s not an option. Believing women only when they could prove it was a failure. It created a society where assault and gender inequality is the norm; where men act out sexually towards women who are powerless to stop it. Unless and until we’re willing to, as a general rule, believe women and look skeptically at the men who deny, we will tacetly be supporting assault and rape. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/243 "2018-12-07T03:42:07Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > #metoo exists because the old way of “just believing some women when they deserve to be believed” didn’t work. Just talking to the person instead of tattling to HR didn’t work. Appeals to existing structures didn’t work. > > Everyone’s suggestions for what to do instead of #metoo-world solutions are ultimately about going back to the status quo. That’s not an option. Believing women only when they could prove it was a failure. It created a society where assault and gender inequality is the norm; where men act out sexually towards women who are powerless to stop it. > > Unless and until we’re willing to, as a general rule, believe women and look skeptically at the men who deny, we will tacetly be supporting assault and rape. Judging from the replies on the Christine Blasey Ford thread, you’re probably going to hear that nobody should believe women unless there is evidence. Of course, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape often don’t leave incontrovertible evidence, which makes it easy for them to deny it happens. They’d rather believe that women who speak up are hysterical liars than deal with the issue, itself. And you can tell them until the cows come home that it’s about believing women, not persecuting men, but it won’t do any good. Apparently they believe no business is aware of wrongful discharge suits and that every business owner who hears of one incident from one woman fires the accused post haste and without investigation. As I said earlier, it’s all about how they view women in general. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/244 "2018-12-07T03:59:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When I was in first grade, someone made up a rumour that I had picked my nose and put the booger on page 52 of my science text book. While I straightened it out formally, there were social impacts that could and did last. I’m sure being a falsely accused booger-picker was very traumatic for you. Almost as traumatic as being a falsely accused rapist. Oh, wait… That’s not the same thing at all! Silly me! > [@eonwe](#): > > #metoo exists because the old way of “just believing some women when they deserve to be believed” didn’t work. I believe people who make credible accusations supported by evidence. I do not believe people whose accusations are not credible or contradicted by evidence. I fail to understand what is wrong with that. > [@eonwe](#): > > Believing women only when they could prove it was a failure. Yeah, turns out it is WAAAY easier to convict somebody when you don’t need to actually prove your case. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/245 "2018-12-07T04:10:55Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Judging from the replies on the Christine Blasey Ford thread, you’re probably going to hear that nobody should believe women unless there is evidence. Of course, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape often don’t leave incontrovertible evidence, which makes it easy for them to deny it happens. They’d rather believe that women who speak up are hysterical liars than deal with the issue, itself. I’m sorry to say this but… duh. If something has no evidence, that makes it pretty hard to believe in it. That definitely makes it hard to justify firing or prosecuting someone. > [@](#): > > And you can tell them until the cows come home that it’s about believing women, not persecuting men, but it won’t do any good. I understand the difference. I just fail to comprehend why I would believe something without evidence. > [@](#): > > Apparently they believe no business is aware of wrongful discharge suits and that every business owner who hears of one incident from one woman fires the accused post haste and without investigation. As I said earlier, it’s all about how they view women in general. Google “Mike Nifong” and see what you get. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/246 "2018-12-07T04:19:53Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > I believe people who make credible accusations supported by evidence. I do not believe people whose accusations are not credible or contradicted by evidence. I fail to understand what is wrong with that. What’s wrong is that your method leaves us with a society where gender-based workplace and social inequities abound, and where sexual assault and harassment are routine experiences for most women. Whatever kind of fairness and logic you think you’re applying, it in fact ends up facilitating those experiences of women and the causal behaviors of men. > [@JB99](#): > > Yeah, turns out it is WAAAY easier to convict somebody when you don’t need to actually prove your case. I’m not talking about convicting people in a court of law, and you know that. Don’t pretend I’m saying something I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/247 "2018-12-07T04:22:10Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > I understand the difference. I just fail to comprehend why I would believe something without evidence. You believe all sorts of things “without evidence” on a daily basis. It’s a fundamental necessity of human interaction. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/248 "2018-12-07T04:30:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Actually doing work while you are at work makes one an “asocial robot”? Strange. > > If you have friends at work, that you see outside of work, then sure, talk about non-work stuff. Colleagues that you don’t hang out with after work, or subordinates? Treat them professionally, which means keep it work related. You never heard of “professional behavior” before? Like I said never been in one of those mythical work environments. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/249 "2018-12-07T04:36:03Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Google “Mike Nifong” and see what you get. I get references to an unethical prosecutor who exploited and sabotaged a rape indictment that was based on a false accusation, and who was eventually disbarred, sued and bankrupted for his conduct. I’m not sure why you think that supports your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/250 "2018-12-07T04:38:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Like I said never been in one of those mythical work environments. Never been in one of those “mythical” work environments where people actually do work while they’re at work? Well, that could explain why your total SDMB post number is nearly one-third of mine even though I’ve been on these boards over six times as long as you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/251 "2018-12-07T04:39:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Like I said never been in one of those mythical work environments. Perhaps that is why you are scared of false accusations? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/252 "2018-12-07T04:52:02Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > You believe all sorts of things “without evidence” on a daily basis. Also, testimony, including the testimony of an accuser, is legally a form of evidence. What **JB99** meant is that he doesn’t believe the statement of an accuser without **supporting** evidence. Which of course, as you point out, is nonsense: people routinely believe unsupported accusations, from _“Some asshole cut me off in traffic this morning”_ to _“My sister cheated me out of half my inheritance”_, as long as the accusations seem credible to them. But in the case of women accusing men of sexual misconduct, some men have decided to set up an artificial criterion of personal belief that officially defaults to disbelief in the absence of supporting evidence. This has the advantage of allowing them to go on ignoring a lot of sexual misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/253 "2018-12-07T05:51:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps that is why you are scared of false accusations? Disapproval of mob “justice” is not fear. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/254 "2018-12-07T06:20:02Z")
So you’re worried that a woman will falsely accuse you of assaulting her, and a mob will form and they’ll lynch you? That’s your fear? How much time out of the day do you worry about this? More than two hours a day might be excessive. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/255 "2018-12-07T07:03:28Z")
[quote=“JB99, post:245, topic:825626”] I’m sorry to say this but… duh. If something has no evidence, that makes it pretty hard to believe in it. That definitely makes it hard to justify firing or prosecuting someone. Nobody’s asking you to fire anybody. And unless you’re a judge, you’re not throwing anyone in jail, either. But this “Sorry, when it comes to sexual harassment, if there’s no proof, I don’t buy it” attitude is disingenuous. If a buddy tells you his lunch was stolen from the fridge, do you say, “Produce evidence you put that pastrami sandwich in the fridge, Frank, and that someone took it, or I won’t believe you”? Doubtful. Look, an employee telling a supervisor or HR she (or he) was sexually harassed is NOT in and of itself going to result in someone getting fired. First there’s an investigation. > [@](#): > > For conduct to amount to sexual harassment, it must be unwanted. Most sexualised attention at work is self-evidently ‘unwanted’. Some colleagues may not realise that you find their behaviour offensive. However, certainly as soon as you have made your feelings clear, by explaining how their actions make you feel, there can be no question in anybody’s mind that the behaviour is unwanted. As a result, any further continuation of the behaviour is likely to constitute unlawful sexual harassment. At my workplace, we employees were told to tell the offender in no uncertain terms to knock it off; take screen shots of any offensive texts, photos, emails, or PM’s; document. But what happens when someone sexually harasses a colleague or subordinate, is told to stop, and doesn’t. What then? He claims she never told him to stop. (He wasn’t stupid enough to do it when others were around.) You don’t believe her without evidence; in other words, _you_ say it didn’t happen, and she’s a liar, even though it did and she’s not. And the harasser gets away with it _That’s_ what #Metoo is about: for all of us who had to put up and shut up, here was the chance to share with others, to be believed after years of put up and shut up. I keep hoping–and I mean this sincerely–that the “I believe nothing without evidence” folks here never have wives/daughters/sisters/friends that get sexually harassed or, God forbid, sexually assaulted, because some of you apparently won’t believe them unless they have incontrovertible evidence. Odds are, though, someone you care about has already been sexually harassed or assaulted. They’re just not going to tell YOU about it. Guess why. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/256 "2018-12-07T07:15:43Z")
Missed the edit window. Here’s the link for the quoted material: [https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/discrimination/sexual-harassment/what-proof-do-i-need-sexual-harassment](https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/discrimination/sexual-harassment/what-proof-do-i-need-sexual-harassment) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/257 "2018-12-07T07:21:50Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So you’re worried that a woman will falsely accuse you of assaulting her, and a mob will form and they’ll lynch you? > > That’s your fear? > > How much time out of the day do you worry about this? More than two hours a day might be excessive. Well if you think accusations should be sufficient to rile up a mob and demand loss of job or enrollment at a university just say you’re in favor of mob justice. No need to be silly about it. Are there cases where real criminals don’t get the consequences they deserve? Absolutely. But this thread isn’t about that. It’s about cost/benefit analysis at work. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/258 "2018-12-07T07:32:46Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > But what happens when someone sexually harasses a colleague or subordinate, is told to stop, and doesn’t. What then? He claims she never told him to stop. (He wasn’t stupid enough to do it when others were around.) You don’t believe her without evidence Note, of course, that not believing the accuser without evidence is effectively equivalent to believing the harasser, **equally without evidence**. The default position, for people maintaining this attitude, is not actually a neutral suspension of belief: it’s defaulting to a belief that misconduct did **not** happen, and that solid supporting evidence is required in order to change that default belief. Considering how often sexual misconduct **does** happen in the workplace, it’s odd that so many people’s position on the subject defaults to maintaining the firm belief that sexual misconduct **didn’t** happen, unless and until they’re confronted with evidence so incontrovertible that they can’t possibly go on disbelieving it. I mean, that is not really where the smart money would place its bets about the chance of sexual misconduct occurring. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/259 "2018-12-07T07:33:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well if you think accusations should be sufficient to rile up a mob and demand loss of job or enrollment at a university just say you’re in favor of mob justice. No need to be silly about it. > > Are there cases where real criminals don’t get the consequences they deserve? Absolutely. But this thread isn’t about that. It’s about cost/benefit analysis at work. If an orderly form of redress for this illegal behavior was available this “mob justice” you are afraid of wouldn’t exist. It is the denial of due process and the disenfranchisement of groups that typically leads to this type of media exposure. It may be hard for you to accept but announcing to the world that you were sexually assaulted typically doesn’t end up being a positive thing for the victim. But when it is the only option due to a refusal to address a problem some individuals will pay that price. Developing policies, rules and laws based on rape myths does nothing to prevent this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/260 "2018-12-07T07:35:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Are there cases where real criminals don’t get the consequences they deserve? Absolutely. But this thread isn’t about that. It’s about cost/benefit analysis at work. I repeat: Why isn’t this alleged “cost/benefit analysis” applied to the costs of what women have to endure from the far greater incidence of men actually **committing** sexual misconduct? > [@Kimstu](#): > > If men shouldn’t have to put up with a small risk of women falsely accusing them, why should women have to put up with a much larger risk of men assaulting or harassing them? Let’s get the men segregated into their blue-collar-ghetto jobs, under competent female supervision of course, and leave the positions of power and authority to the women who are statistically far more likely to be able to keep their hands off non-consenting co-workers and employees. > > And furthermore, when all the men are safely segregated in the lower-status maintenance/service/etc. jobs and all the women are safe in the boardrooms and operating rooms and so forth, it will be much more difficult for a woman to falsely accuse a man of sexually misbehaving with her. Win-win! > > There is no logically consistent reason why men who advocate shunning and excluding women from an integrated workforce, due to the potential danger of their making false accusations, shouldn’t be even more on board with shunning and excluding men because of the far greater dangers their behavior poses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=14)