# \#MeToo backlash is hurting women (Bloomberg article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626 "2018-12-05T19:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/281 "2018-12-07T18:25:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Even on these forums and others we have a mob that tries to provide “justice” via enacting social costs. 😕 “On these forums”? On these forums we have posting rules. People who violate those rules suffer the “social costs” of being reprimanded, suspended or banned. We also have a lot of freedom to express our views. People who express views that are widely regarded as repugnant and/or stupid suffer the “social costs” of being frequently mocked, despised or Pitted. Why do you think any of this counts as “mob justice” that should be “feared”? You seem to have an unrealistic notion that violating agreed-upon community norms and saying things that many people find repugnant or stupid ought to be somehow immune from “social costs”. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/282 "2018-12-07T18:29:26Z")
It’s kind of a matter of collateral damage. We have a paradigm shift here. In the new paradigm, some portion of falsely accused men (how many? Nobody talking about how awful this is seems to have even tried to figure this out) who will apparently be accused falsely and suffer consequences as a result. That’s bad. So why would we do this? Because in the old paradigm, the collateral damage was _the vast majority of women_. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/283 "2018-12-07T19:10:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 “On these forums”? > > On these forums we have posting rules. People who violate those rules suffer the “social costs” of being reprimanded, suspended or banned. > > We also have a lot of freedom to express our views. People who express views that are widely regarded as repugnant and/or stupid suffer the “social costs” of being frequently mocked, despised or Pitted. > > Why do you think any of this counts as “mob justice” that should be “feared”? You seem to have an unrealistic notion that violating agreed-upon community norms and saying things that many people find repugnant or stupid ought to be somehow immune from “social costs”. I’m betting that in 10 years or so you’ll be rethinking your support for mob action in the modern age. Unintended consequences and the resulting reactive forces sometimes result in teachable moments. Wait until all these silly youth with their inappropriate tweets, videos, photos, Facebook posts, forum posts, etc need a job that won’t tolerate an iota of embarrassing behavior. You might see a push to regulate search and storage like we see in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/284 "2018-12-07T19:11:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m betting that in 10 years or so you’ll be rethinking your support for mob action in the modern age. Who in this thread, and by what words, has expressed “support for mob action”? I haven’t seen a single post in support of “mob action”. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/285 "2018-12-07T19:17:53Z")
Yeah we just keep hearing this nebulous phrase “support for mob action” but no solutions are offered as to how this so called problem could ever be solved. How does “support for mob action” differ from “people freely expressing their opinions on current events”? It’s a manufactured boogie man so that there is something to rail against. I can’t see any more substance to it, but I’m open to considering further explanations or details should any be offered. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/286 "2018-12-07T19:23:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wait until all these silly youth with their inappropriate tweets, videos, photos, Facebook posts, forum posts, etc need a job that won’t tolerate an iota of embarrassing behavior. You might see a push to regulate search and storage like we see in Europe. My former coworkers all knew about my Tumblr and the hypnosis files I made. Just FYI. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/287 "2018-12-07T20:21:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yeah we just keep hearing this nebulous phrase “support for mob action” but no solutions are offered as to how this so called problem could ever be solved. > > How does “support for mob action” differ from “people freely expressing their opinions on current events”? > > It’s a manufactured boogie man so that there is something to rail against. I can’t see any more substance to it, but I’m open to considering further explanations or details should any be offered. I believe “mob action” in this instance is simply a bitter term meaning “the majority, which opposes me.” ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/288 "2018-12-07T20:57:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Or : you believe her without evidence, in other words you say it did happen, and he’s a terrible person, even though it didn’t, and he isn’t. And she gets away with it. > > How do you choose between these two options and why? If Claire says Bob pinched her ass, I offer her compassion and steer her to HR. Let them investigate. I don’t automatically assume Bob is a “terrible person.” I believe Bob may not know boundaries, or I may believe, especially if Bob pinched MY ass, that Bob shouldn’t be around coworkers if he can’t keep his hands to himself. And I’d think this way even if Bob is accused of pinching Fred’s ass. I also _don’t_ assume Claire’s a backbiting bitch who’s willing to go through a pretty unpleasant process just to get Bob fired. That seems to be what you assume, and without evidence. > [@](#): > > People will naturally believe their wives/daughters/sisters/friends. I’ve known several people who have been sexually assaulted or raped. The problem comes when we’re asked with insistance, like on this board, to believe any accusation by a complete stranger against another complete stranger and told that this is somehow what we should do by default, or else we’re terrible people. You’re arguing by extremes. What most of us are asking is that you don’t dismiss her out of hand because she has no evidence. Your default position is without evidence, and without knowing either one, you’ll dismiss the woman’s complaint because there’s a statistically small chance she’s lying, but you’ll believe the man because he must be telling the truth. > [@](#): > > Also : what will you say if your husband/son/brother/friend tells you that he’s falsely accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault, because apparently you’ll believe the accusation even if there’s no evidence, right? > > People tend to think readily “what if my loved one was the alleged victim?”, but somehow rarely wonder “what if my loved one was the alleged crimina?l”. Apply also for instance, to people supporting the death penalty. Not sure what that last sentence means, but if my son/brother/friend says he was accused of sexual harassment, I’d I’d be surprised, because my son and brother are both careful, respectful people who were raised not to act like lascivious idiots, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t do anything wrong. And it wouldn’t make him a terrible people or make me stop loving him. Did he do this repeatedly? That’s the definition of harassment: it’s more than once. The first time, the victim says no and don’t try that again, bub. I’d ask what if anything he did do that he might not have considered harassment. If so, I would tell him I still love him, but he did terrible things, and he’s going to have to face the music for doing them. What I WOULDN’T do is dismiss her complaint out of hand. God, if we could just get people to stop doing that, I’d be vastly relieved. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/289 "2018-12-07T21:09:52Z")
By “mob action” he means doing stuff like saying “I don’t think Kavanaugh should be appointed to the Supreme Court.” It means saying stuff like, “Hey, turns out Bill Cosby is a rapist”. It means saying stuff like, “After listening to his ex-girlfriend’s story I’m not going to listen to Chris Hardwick anymore.” It means saying stuff like, “After all the stories about Louis CK jerking off in front of women, I used to like his show but I can’t watch it anymore without getting creeped out.” You know, mob justice like that. Of course the anti-anti-harassment forces here are mostly talking about stories that involve public figures, because those are the stories we can all talk about. And the thing about public figures is that in many cases their careers depend on the whims of the public or the voters, or how their bosses perceive the whims of the public or the voters. If people don’t want to listen to Chris Hardwick anymore because they think he’s a jerk, then how is that mob justice? If advertisers don’t want to advertise on Bill O’Reilly’s show any more, then how is that mob justice? But in reality of course most harassment and assault doesn’t involve public figures. Then we’re not talking about mob justice, are we? Because we never hear about the guy who got reprimanded by HR for making suggestive comments to the interns. We never hear about the guy who got fired for groping the receptionist. Or if we do, it’s because it happened at our workplace. We’ve already had one person claim that if you can make it your whole career without getting accused of sexual harassment you’re lucky. I kind of doubt that, though. Because I’ve been working for quite a while, and neither I nor any of my other co-workers have been accused of sexual harassment, much less multiple times. And I’ve never seen a woman who files sexual harassment claims against all of her male co-workers either. The genesis of this discussion was a piece in Bloomberg about how a few Wall Street types have decided that the best way to avoid being accused of harassment by women is to exclude women. Don’t hire them, don’t include them in meetings, don’t do business with them, don’t communicate with them. Freeze them out, don’t do anything with them, and then you’ll never have your innocent comments about their appearance and your innocent offers of foot massages and your innocent discussions of how your wife doesn’t understand you be crazily misinterpreted as some sort of sexual harassment. Getting reprimanded by HR because your subordinate complained about you isn’t mob justice, is it? Or do workers have some sort of guarantee to a job? Or can HR only reprimand you after a trial? Proof beyond a reasonable doubt? No, that’s not the standard at work. You can be fired from your job because you stole from the company, even though you haven’t been convicted of that theft in court. And if your case goes to trial and there’s a not guilty verdict, does that mean the company is obligated to re-hire you? No they are not. You lost the trust of your bosses, and they fired you. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn’t enter into it. Better that 100 harassers keep their job than one innocent non-harasser get fired for harassment? Is that how things work at your company? Because I guarantee you that’s not how it works at your company. People keep demanding evidence. Dude, Alice going to HR and complaining that Bob groped her is evidence. Her statement is evidence. Of course, his statement denying it is evidence too. And then you look at both pieces of evidence, and you decide what to do. But you don’t insist that there’s nothing you can do because there’s no evidence. This isn’t even the standard in criminal cases. In many cases the only evidence is the testimony of witnesses. And this isn’t dismissed as “no evidence”. It is evaluated by the judge and jury, and they make their determination based on their opinion of the evidence. Let me make this as simple as possible. You own a small business. One day your employee Alice comes to you and tells you that Bob has been following her around and threatening her unless she has sex with him. You’re saying that, since the only evidence of this is what Alice tells you, you tell Alice that there’s nothing you can do? Or I guess the smart thing to do is fire Alice, since you don’t believe her, and how can you employ a liar like that? This has nothing to do with double standards for men and women, because the exact same standard holds if Bob comes to you and complains about Alice, or if Alice complains about Carol, or if Bob complains about David. The standard used to be that you’d ignore Alice or Bob’s complaints, or tell them to toughen up and handle it themselves, or fire them for being a troublemaker. And so of course very few people would bother to make such complaints, because it was more likely that the complainer would get punished than the perpetrator. Especially if the complainer is a junior employee complaining about a senior employee. So everyone complaining about mob justice, we’re mostly not talking about the consequences for celebrities and politicians and other public figures. We’re talking about consequences for the people at ordinary workplaces. Should the standard at your job be that 100 harassers are better than 1 false accuser? That senior staff should be able to threaten, harass, and assault junior staff with impunity? What’s your ideal standard here? That it’s not your business until and unless someone gets convicted of a crime in a court of law? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/290 "2018-12-07T21:14:26Z")
That was fantastic! \*applause ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/291 "2018-12-07T21:19:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > On these forums we have posting rules. People who violate those rules suffer the “social costs” of being reprimanded, suspended or banned. > > > > We also have a lot of freedom to express our views. People who express views that are widely regarded as repugnant and/or stupid suffer the “social costs” of being frequently mocked, despised or Pitted. > > > > Why do you think any of this counts as “mob justice” that should be “feared”? You seem to have an unrealistic notion that violating agreed-upon community norms and saying things that many people find repugnant or stupid ought to be somehow immune from “social costs”. > > I’m betting that in 10 years or so you’ll be rethinking your support for mob action in the modern age. Unintended consequences and the resulting reactive forces sometimes result in teachable moments. Can you spare a moment from your smugly unfalsifiable prophesying to answer the question I asked you? Why do you think that these “social costs” of violating rules and/or being a dick on an anonymous internet messageboard constitute a form of “mob action”, much less “mob justice”, that should be “feared”? > [@octopus](#): > > Wait until all these silly youth with their inappropriate tweets, videos, photos, Facebook posts, forum posts, etc need a job that won’t tolerate an iota of embarrassing behavior. You might see a push to regulate search and storage like we see in Europe. Do you mean things like Europe’s [General Data Protection Regulation](https://www.wired.com/story/europes-new-privacy-law-will-change-the-web-and-more/)? What would be wrong with that? Do you believe that such privacy laws would somehow eliminate the abovementioned “social costs” of violating rules and/or being a dick on the internet? > [@nelliebly](#): > > I believe “mob action” in this instance is simply a bitter term meaning “the majority, which opposes me.” “And is gonna be SO SO SORRY on some unspecified day when it gets opposed itself!! Hahaaa!” I think internet anonymity has given some people an unjustified sense of entitlement about insulation from disagreement or criticism. Since they can be an anonymous jerk to strangers on the internet without getting any pushback whatsoever for it in real life, they have decided that **any** pushback for jerkish behavior is somehow an illegitimate or excessive form of attack. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/292 "2018-12-07T23:37:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Benjamin Franklin is said to have written ["That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer](https://www.bartleby.com/73/953.html)". I wonder if many (or any) posters in this thread would agree with this. And the “solution” to prevent the possibility of a false accusation is to prevent any accusations? Can we apply the same to other crimes? Some people have been falsely accused of theft, lest this happen again, we should prevent people accusing other people of theft. Some people have been framed for Murder, therefor we should not accept any accusation of Murder. This was the point of the #MeToo movement. In spite of what some people think it wasn’t, “all men should be convicted without evidence”, it was “I should be allowed to make an accusation that will be taken seriously and investigated rather than just brushed off”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/293 "2018-12-08T01:54:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If that is so then why is that a tactic so commonly used? Even on these forums and others we have a mob that tries to provide “justice” via enacting social costs. Yeah, that’s not rational. That’s paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/294 "2018-12-08T04:47:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, that’s not rational. That’s paranoia. Regardless of your labeling, people in power will still disproportionately shut out women due to this so-called “paranoia.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/295 "2018-12-08T12:13:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Regardless of your labeling, people in power will still disproportionately shut out women due to this so-called “paranoia.” Haters gonna hate, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/296 "2018-12-08T12:14:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Regardless of your labeling, people in power will still disproportionately shut out women due to this so-called “paranoia.” Then the correct response from society at large is to find out who those people in power are who are responding to irrational paranoia in harmful ways and _remove them from power_. What steps will you take to help that happen? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/297 "2018-12-08T15:53:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Regardless of your labeling, people in power will still disproportionately shut out women due to this so-called “paranoia.” They’ve been making excuses for shutting out women (and many others) for decades and centuries… they’re probably not going to stop without a fight. This is just the latest excuse. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/298 "2018-12-08T16:52:46Z")
So basically, it puts the lotion in the basket or it gets the hose again. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/299 "2018-12-08T17:46:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Regardless of your labeling, people in power will still disproportionately shut out women due to this so-called “paranoia.” And you will defend those discriminatory actions, helping them to stay in power and disproportionately shut out women. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/300 "2018-12-08T21:07:51Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > If Claire says Bob pinched her ass, I offer her compassion and steer her to HR. Let them investigate. I don’t automatically assume Bob is a “terrible person.” I believe Bob may not know boundaries, or I may believe, especially if Bob pinched MY ass, that Bob shouldn’t be around coworkers if he can’t keep his hands to himself. And I’d think this way even if Bob is accused of pinching Fred’s ass. I also _don’t_ assume Claire’s a backbiting bitch who’s willing to go through a pretty unpleasant process just to get Bob fired. That seems to be what you assume, and without evidence. > . Of course if Claire pinched Bob’s ass it would just be “girls having fun” right? If an older female manager wanted to go cougar on a hot young male intern it would just be a woman being “empowered”. Ok, maybe these are too far but I want to see equal treatment here. For example I once worked with a woman who was very “open” about asking everyone about there sex lives. She asked things of men that no male would DARE say and nothing happened to her. So if your mad about a man saying a woman looks good in a skirt, you better show equal anger to a woman asking a young man if he’s a virgin or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=16)