# \#MeToo backlash is hurting women (Bloomberg article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626 "2018-12-05T19:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/341 "2018-12-11T23:53:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well from my experience these “bad” topics tend to be started by women. They might ask if a man has a girlfriend or is dating or whatever. Or they might say he looks handsome in a particular outfit. > > Then he asks the same things about her personal life or gives the same compliments on her looks and then he gets in trouble. I remember once talking with a female coworker about clubs and things we like doing but I got in trouble when I mistook this for an invitation and I asked her out. > > I guess men need to have training that when a female coworker starts asking him personal questions he is to immediately tell her to stop. > > Which is crazy when you think about it. What if there is an attraction? What if she wants to set him up with someone? Cant people talk about personal things? Have you ever had sexual harassment training? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/342 "2018-12-12T00:12:50Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I guess men need to have training that when a female coworker starts asking him personal questions he is to immediately tell her to stop. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, then yes. That is exactly what you are supposed to do. Is this really that difficult to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/343 "2018-12-12T03:32:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well from my experience these “bad” topics tend to be started by women. From my experience it’s been the men. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077) > [@Ok, maybe I should not have said that, but...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-maybe-i-should-not-have-said-that-but/796126/1): > > Anyways they asked why I was so calm and I said “Just picturing the 2 of you naked”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/344 "2018-12-12T04:36:57Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > No, it doesn’t mean that they don’t believe what they say, just that they say it for show. The problem is, saying something “for show” also inherently carries the idea that the person does not believe what they are saying. That’s why people disapprove of it. No one has a problem with people looking good for genuinely believing good things. Virtue signalling, as used by the right, is pejorative. So it must be making a claim that the person is doing something wrong. But if the person isn’t lying or misleading people, then what is wrong? Why is it wrong to let people know that you believe the same thing they do? Is it wrong when you share your genuine beliefs, too? Without the element of deception, there’s nothing wrong with the situation you describe in the rest of your post. There is nothing wrong with saying on your Tumblr profile that the gay rights issue is so important to you that it is a significant part of your identity. You can show you are an LGBT ally and activist. That you still think that this is important. Your example also is just completely out of touch with what’s actually going on in the world. **No, gay rights are not remotely a settled issue.** The right wing in America is usually not supportive of gay rights. Christians still argue that it’s their right to discriminate against gay people, that gay marriage is wrong. There is still no federal anti-discrimination law for gay people, and most states don’t have one either. Instead, states suddenly thought their religion was under attack and had to pass freedom of religion acts, or pass laws saying that cities couldn’t pass their own anti-discrimination legislation. At least people who think racism is over could at least be forgiven for thinking that all legal hurdles have been removed. But believing homophobia is over? That everyone support gay people now? Not remotely. Maybe it’s better in the part of France where you live. But Tumblr is predominantly American. And I know that France still has its bigots, so it wouldn’t be wrong there. But, even if it was the accepted belief, it’s still not wrong to profess it. The majority of people support the troops in the US. That doesn’t make it wrong to say “I support the troops.” There is no rule saying that I cannot say anything unless a significant number of people will disagree with me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/345 "2018-12-12T10:42:58Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > From my experience it’s been the men. > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077) What a surprise! Good find. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/346 "2018-12-12T11:22:52Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > From my experience it’s been the men. > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077) :eek: … :mad: Hey **Urbanredneck** , in case you’re wondering why most people think your assertion that everyone’s going to get accused of sexual assault is so bizarre: this is part of why. Most people don’t get accused of sexual harassment, because most people don’t sexually harass people. Meanwhile, you’re the kind of person who sees nothing wrong with saying “Just picturing the 2 of you naked” to two female doctors currently helping you. It is **absolutely** a “you” problem. It’s not just that you don’t know where the line is; _you aren’t even in the same zip code_. Your “friendly joke” is about a step up from asking a female doctor to check out your cock, and then when she asks why, answering “because it gets hard every time I’m near you”. What you’re doing is not just inappropriate, it’s the kind of thing that would be grounds for termination and possible legal action in almost any professional environment had you done it to a coworker. I’m being entirely serious when I say that depending on where you live, if you had made this comment to a coworker, **you could go to jail**. I’m not just saying this to drag you, but because if you’re legitimately concerned about being the target of sexual harassment allegations (which, at this point, **you absolutely should be** ), the first step to avoiding them is learning what is and is not sexual harassment. And that? That was sexual harassment. You do not, [as you insisted when almost everyone else in the thread called you out on it](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20475647&postcount=43), “know when to not cross the line”, because that’s so far across the line that the line has passed below the horizon and is no longer visible due to the curvature of the earth. Seriously, for your own sake, visit a sexual harassment seminar. Listen. Observe. Don’t tell the instructor “that’s not sexual harassment”, just pay attention and _take their advice_. Because I have your word for it that you’ve committed at least one case of sexual harassment, and knowing your posting history, I would seriously, _seriously_ doubt that that’s the only time. :mad: On a side note, this is indicative of a certain pattern. If someone’s response to #MeToo or the univeral pervasiveness of sexual harassment is to argue that it’s mostly overblown, or that we should worry first and foremost about false accusations, it very often says something about them. They identify more with the perpetrators than the victims. Ask yourself why that is. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/347 "2018-12-12T11:50:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well from my experience these “bad” topics tend to be started by women. They might ask if a man has a girlfriend or is dating or whatever. Or they might say he looks handsome in a particular outfit. > > Then he asks the same things about her personal life or gives the same compliments on her looks and then he gets in trouble. I remember once talking with a female coworker about clubs and things we like doing but I got in trouble when I mistook this for an invitation and I asked her out. > > I guess men need to have training that when a female coworker starts asking him personal questions he is to immediately tell her to stop. > > Which is crazy when you think about it. What if there is an attraction? What if she wants to set him up with someone? Cant people talk about personal things? [_blinks_](https://giphy.com/gifs/mashable-l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS) Step one of getting out of the hole: **stop digging**. Let me tell you a story from a field I hold dear: the erotic hypnosis community. There’s this guy in the community. Real eager beaver. He means well, he’s fun to be around, he’s scrupulous to a fault. But he keeps on accidentally hurting people. He hits them too hard when spanking them. He forgets limits and hits psychological triggers that he wasn’t supposed to hit. He doesn’t always do a clear enough job deliniating between a one-time session and a real relationship. He lacks certain social graces and you often have to explain things to him that you shouldn’t need to explain to people (like “no, mapping out all of the polycules in our community is a bad idea that would just cause strife”). This is probably all because he’s a little autistic and a little ADHD. But he really does mean well, and he loves what he does, and it hurts him deeply every time he fucks up. But the fact that he is trying his best does not change the fact that, because of his own blind spots and mental issues, he is hurting people. And if he doesn’t change, if he doesn’t fix his shit, he will need to be shunned from that community. Because if he isn’t, he’s going to keep hurting people, and at that point it doesn’t matter if he means well - that’s gotta stop. You don’t seem to recognize that you are sexually harassing people. You “mean well”. But that doesn’t change the fact that when you interact with women in that way, they are left _creeped the fuck out_ because of things you say and do, and that your actions definitely and unquestionably have risen to the level of sexual harassment in at least one case. And this isn’t just a matter of “thrown out of a niche interest community”, this is a matter of “fired and possibly imprisoned”. **you need to stop**. You need to shut down interactions that become more personal. You need to tread extremely carefully. You need to keep your interactions to things that are clearly acceptable - work, cars, sports, the weather, things like that. You need to avoid “bad” topics, because regardless if they’re okay for others to talk about, you are clearly missing some critical nuance or skill required to do so without crossing the line - probably because you don’t have the foggiest clue where the line is. (Indeed, you’re a step or two behind the guy I mentioned above, because when you explain to him that he fucked up, his response isn’t to arrogantly assert, “I know when not the cross the line”, it’s to realize that he fucked up and try to make amends! He puts down the shovel, at least for a moment. You won’t even go that far - when you’re informed that, by your own account, you unambiguously sexually harassed two medical professionals, you scoff and insist that everyone else is wrong and you’re right. Then you come into a thread about sexual harassment allegations and say that everyone should expect to be the victim of false allegations. Stop digging. Please, for the love of god, stop digging.) ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/348 "2018-12-12T13:05:34Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > So female is now inappropriate, wow, good to know. > How about woman, that still acceptable? The reason that the word “female” is problematic is that it is an adjective. An adjective is a word that describes or modifies a noun. Adjectives are not meant to be used alone, they are meant to define an attribute, like ‘brown’, ‘large’, or ‘soft’. When used alone, ‘female’ sounds like the only thing that is seen is the attribute, not the humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/349 "2018-12-12T13:16:58Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Not to mention, say a person is in sales. Isnt there appearance important? For most of the large companies I’ve worked with, it was exactly as important as the appearance of the people loading trucks or inspecting product. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/350 "2018-12-12T13:26:15Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > So female is now inappropriate, wow, good to know. > How about woman, that still acceptable? Using “female” as an adjective remains fine (“I have several female co-workers”). The problem is when, as he was, you use it as a noun (“I work with a bunch of females”) which at the very least makes you sound like a brain-damaged Ferengi (“Many of my best friends are HYOOMON FEMALES”). “Woman” also remains fine as long as you’re not using it as a substitute for someone’s name (“Woman, bring me the Bilberg account file!”), that one John Lennon song notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/351 "2018-12-12T13:30:29Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > So female is now inappropriate, wow, good to know. > How about woman, that still acceptable? > [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > The reason that the word “female” is problematic is that it is an adjective. An adjective is a word that describes or modifies a noun. Adjectives are not meant to be used alone, they are meant to define an attribute, like ‘brown’, ‘large’, or ‘soft’. When used alone, ‘female’ sounds like the only thing that is seen is the attribute, not the humanity. Except there was a push a few years ago to use “woman” as an adjective rather than “female” as a hypercompensation for the use of female as a noun. Thankfully that bit of linguistic silliness has faded somewhat, but once in awhile I would hear weird sentences like “there are far fewer woman directors on the scene than males” 😕 :smack: Furthermore, nouns as adjectives tend to be just as essentializing as adjectives as nouns to me, for instance “Democrat politicians” makes it seem like their membership in the Democratic party is the only thing that is important about them rather than simply being a characteristic, so I’m reminded of people who use nouns as adjectives as sloppy slurs whenever I hear of a “woman x”. On the other hand, there are times – most of the time – when an adjective is not essential at all, so usually when given the choice between saying “woman doctor” or “female doctor” most of the time you should say “doctor”. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/352 "2018-12-12T21:51:42Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > From my experience it’s been the men. > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=836077) Dang, you really have alot of time on your hands to go research all the things I write. Go get a life. BTW, that was un-work related. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/353 "2018-12-12T21:56:56Z")
Please stop digging. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/354 "2018-12-12T22:01:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Dang, you really have alot of time on your hands to go research all the things I write. Go get a life. BTW, that was un-work related. Not for the women involved, it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/355 "2018-12-12T22:30:18Z")
I hope this can be a learning moment for you, Urbanredneck. What you said to those nurses likely make them feel very uncomfortable and possibly scared for their safety. There was no pressing need to say what you did. The look they gave each other was probably a look of “uh oh, are we in a bad situation with this guy?”. If you were alone with a single nurse and said that, she’d probably be very worried about what you were going to do next. If you care at all about the feelings of others, you should refrain from this kind of behavior entirely. Not just the sex talk, but any comment about appearance in general. Imagine that a male nurse who was large enough to overpower you was helping you and was staring at you funny. When you asked him why he was looking like that, he said he was imagining what you’d look like naked in his bed. I would guess that you’d feel very uncomfortable and wonder if he was going to try something with you. How you might feel in that moment is likely how those nurses felt. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/356 "2018-12-13T08:05:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not for the women involved, it wasn’t. I like how this has not been responded to. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/357 "2018-12-13T08:11:33Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/358 "2018-12-13T10:28:47Z")
I’ve never had any problems with women in a professional setting, however it’s POSSIBLY come at cost. I guess I don’t know how to flirt. If I’m interested, I simply say something like “you’re looking particularly nice today.” I don’t know how to talk in the same type of language I’ve seen men and women use on each other to indicate their attration to one another, sadly. Anyway… When you talk in that language with double entendres, you have to be very careful. You have to get a feel of your audience first. I just never learned. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/359 "2018-12-13T12:06:12Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I like how this has not been responded to. I wouldn’t take it as having proven anything. It’s far more likely that you’ve simply chased away any will for conversation. Shutting down conversation then patting yourself on the back is great for tumblr. Not so much for debate. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/360 "2018-12-13T19:14:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This is about as on the level as those who criticize the Black Lives Matter movement by claiming that it is saying “only” black lives matter. > > For most of history, the default was “Don’t believe the women”. Saying “believe women” is not the same as saying “don’t believe men”, it is saying all it is saying, which is “believe women.” It does scare me that you have such a contempt and dismissal for the basic concept of believing women. You _can’t_ at the same time “believe women” and not “not believe men”. Your statement (and it’s not like you’re the only one) is plainly nonsensical. If a woman says “he groped me” and the man says “I didn’t”, if you believe the woman then you necessarily don’t believe the man, since the first statement being true necessarily makes the second false. Pretending the contrary is a “1984” level of politically correct absurdity. It scares me that you (and others) have such a contempt and dismissal for basic logic. And I’m serious. Maybe what you mean by “believing women” is giving a sympathetic ear without it having any real world consequence for anybody, because you then act as if you didn’t in fact believe them. This isn’t “believing women”. If you’re doing that, you’re just clamoring to believe them for show, and it’s a pretty good example of “virtue signaling”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=19)