# \#MeToo backlash is hurting women (Bloomberg article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626 "2018-12-05T19:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/121 "2018-12-06T15:26:47Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt. Dude. Are you serious? Do you really think it’s okay to say that to a co-worker? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/122 "2018-12-06T15:31:45Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt. Good on whomever is taking crap like that seriously. Gives me hope that things are getting better. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/123 "2018-12-06T15:33:47Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt. Although he might think there was nothing wrong with it, that’s just because he doesn’t realize he’s making a sexist comment. He likely only complements women and not men. He likely has never made a similar comment about a guy looking good in jeans. He may also do similar things like complement a woman coworker’s hair, makeup, top, etc. Unless he is truly in the habit of complementing both men and women on their appearance, his “complements” likely have a sexual undertone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/124 "2018-12-06T16:09:55Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Although he might think there was nothing wrong with it, that’s just because he doesn’t realize he’s making a sexist comment. He likely only complements women and not men. He likely has never made a similar comment about a guy looking good in jeans. He may also do similar things like complement a woman coworker’s hair, makeup, top, etc. Unless he is truly in the habit of complementing both men and women on their appearance, his “complements” likely have a sexual undertone. And if he is in the habit of completing both men and women on their appearance, he should cut it out. The only discussion about appearance that should be acceptable in the workplace would be if you are not meeting dress code regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/125 "2018-12-06T16:14:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt. Specificity might be helpful here. Did he say, “you like nice today.” And she happened to be wearing a short skirt? Or did he say, “that female looks good in her short skirt.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/126 "2018-12-06T16:37:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is also curious why you will not address what is considered by many legal experts to be a real problem and a serious abrogation of due process as regards men and accusations of sexual harassment? I’m not “addressing” it separately because I’ve got no objection to your criticisms of it, except for your misleading attempt to label it “#MeToo” when it is actually a specific phenomenon regarding campus codes of conduct responding to a specific Federal initiative about campus sexual assault beginning in the first term of the Obama administration. You don’t get to lump all such earlier phenomena under the label “#MeToo” just because they contributed to the cultural zeitgeist that gave rise to #MeToo. Likewise, you couldn’t lump, say, the 1960s Civil Rights movement or the subsequent Black Power movement under the label “Black Lives Matter” just because they contributed to its inspiration. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I 100% agree if an accusation is made it should be taken seriously and investigated. And if such an accuser is accused (credibly by somebody involved in the case, I mean, not just some random internet commenter or such) of making a false accusation, then that accusation should be taken seriously and investigated too. Nobody here is disagreeing with any of these basic principles. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Because we both know no one here would actually say, “I think due process is dumb and we should not do it,” and we both know that. Yes, we both know that no one here would actually say that, and the reason is that **no one here actually believes that**. I really don’t see why this is so hard for you to grasp. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But people here are content with #MeToo as it is which, I have already showed, runs roughshod over due process. You have still entirely failed to provide any supporting evidence for this claim, except by misleadingly twisting the application of the term #MeToo to include those earlier campus-conduct policies discussed above. (And you’re also failing to note that even those questionable policies are being subjected to strong scrutiny and criticism from many academics themselves as well as being frequently challenged in court, so they are hardly managing to “run roughshod over due process” in the uncontrolled way you imply.) Nor have you shown any evidence that being “content with #MeToo as it is”, for any of the posters in this thread, actually means being willing to sacrifice due process or the civil liberties of the accused. So I think it’s high time you stopped repeating that unsubstantiated claim. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/127 "2018-12-06T16:50:49Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It’s gone out with other quaint things, like the “things have degrees”, and chance to defend oneself. :rolleyes: You mean how Aziz Ansari took a few lumps in the public eye and got right back on the horse, whereas Kevin Spacy will probably never work in Hollywood again and Bill Cosby will die in prison? And how Neil DeGrasse Tyson responded to his accusers elegantly and got a generally good reception (while simultaneously rejecting the claims made)? This is the silly strawman version of #MeToo people were afraid of in the wake of that Babe article. The version that never actually happened. If anything, we’ve been entirely too lenient, as evidenced by Louis CK’s return. Again, the legal standard is not the standard we apply in our day to day lives. It’s not the standard we apply when judging others. It’s not the standard we apply to employees or expect our bosses or potential employers to apply to us. It is the standard we demand before allowing the government to strip us of our fundamental human rights, potentially for years at a time. Demanding we apply it to claims of sexual assault in the public sphere, when all that’s at stake is someone’s reputation, is an absurd isolated demand for rigor that ensures that abusers, harassers, and rapists will face no social social repercussions for their actions in addition to no legal repercussions. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Let’s face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen. I think that this might be more of a “you” problem. EDIT: Oh wow I made this post before seeing your comment about the short skirt. Totally vindicated. It’s DEFINITELY a “you” problem - if you can’t spot anything wrong with that, then it’s no surprise you’ll get in hot water. Go take a seminar on this shit or something, jeez. ������ ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/128 "2018-12-06T16:54:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > :rolleyes: > > You mean how Aziz Ansari took a few lumps in the public eye and got right back on the horse, whereas Kevin Spacy will probably never work in Hollywood again and Bill Cosby will die in prison? And how Neil DeGrasse Tyson responded to his accusers elegantly and got a generally good reception (while simultaneously rejecting the claims made)? This is the silly strawman version of #MeToo people were afraid of in the wake of that Babe article. The version that never actually happened. If anything, we’ve been entirely too lenient, as evidenced by Louis CK’s return. > > Again, the legal standard is not the standard we apply in our day to day lives. It’s not the standard we apply when judging others. It’s not the standard we apply to employees or expect our bosses or potential employers to apply to us. It is the standard we demand before allowing the government to strip us of our fundamental human rights, potentially for years at a time. Demanding we apply it to claims of sexual assault in the public sphere, when all that’s at stake is someone’s reputation, is an absurd isolated demand for rigor that ensures that abusers, harassers, and rapists will face no social social repercussions for their actions in addition to no legal repercussions. > > I think that this might be more of a “you” problem. > > EDIT: Oh wow I made this post before seeing your comment about the short skirt. Totally vindicated. It’s DEFINITELY a “you” problem - if you can’t spot anything wrong with that, then it’s no surprise you’ll get in hot water. Go take a seminar on this shit or something, jeez. �� It’s not absurd to reject the idea of mob justice. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/129 "2018-12-06T17:14:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not absurd to reject the idea of mob justice. Define “mob justice”. Because I feel like you’re either strawmanning or off topic here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/130 "2018-12-06T17:20:13Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Let’s face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen. Never happened to me in 35 years of work. Never heard of it happening to other men, and I was a manager. It’s easy to keep it from happening - just don’t be a sexist pig. Like the guy who thought it fit to comment on the skirt. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/131 "2018-12-06T17:24:14Z")
If burglary were treated the way rape used to be (and maybe still is) when someone called the police to report it they’d get asked if it really happened or if they had just given the stuff to the reputed robber - consensual burglary. Half the time the police wouldn’t bother to come, and if they did would either lose the evidence (the burglary kit) or charge the victim for collecting it. And certain people would be very worried about the rights of burglars and drag out the one or two cases of people being falsely accused. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/132 "2018-12-06T17:48:35Z")
Aside from the usual suspects slinging their sexist bullshit in this thread, here’s the one thing I really don’t get about the overwrought blacklash against #MeToo. In anyone’s job, one could be unjustly accused of misconduct in many different ways. Sexual harassment, racial discrimination, theft, fraud, deceit, malingering, having a bad attitude, spilling secrets/gossiping, being an evil sorcerer, or many other things. In the general scope of things, I don’t see that sexual harassment is actually treated more severely than other types of accusations - if anything, in our society, it has been brushed under the rug far more than other types of misconduct. For example, if A is accused of sexual harassment, that’s far more likely to be swept under the rug than if A is accused of giving trade secrets to a competitor, just to pick one example. So why are so many men losing their fucking minds when it comes to sexual harassment and women, but they aren’t going nuts about how they might be accused of pilfering or grabbing another dude’s balls or whatever? I’ll just go ahead and answer my own question: because I think the men overreacting to the notion they they should treat everyone in the workplace equally actually hold deep-seated prejudices, in this case, that they believe that a lot of women are lying bitches that are a threat to them. It’s just sexism, and that’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/133 "2018-12-06T17:51:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt. What the fuck is wrong with… him? And how on earth do you think his punishment is unfair? Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/134 "2018-12-06T18:19:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Let’s face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen. I’ll add to the litany of responses to this ridiculous claim. I recently retired after 40+ years of working in the white-collar world, the last 17 of which was spent in management. I was never accused by a woman of sexual harassment. And all but one of the men with whom I worked were not accused, either. The one example I remember of a guy being accused of such was many years ago, when a co-worker somehow climbed atop the copier with his pants down and took a picture of his junk, and then gave said picture to another co-worker, who was a single woman. She immediately reported it to her supervisor and the offender was fired the same day. I often wondered how he explained to his wife how he lost his job. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/135 "2018-12-06T18:23:22Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > The one example I remember of a guy being accused of such was many years ago, when a co-worker somehow climbed atop the copier with his pants down and took a picture of his junk, and then gave said picture to another co-worker, who was a single woman. :eek::eek: Why do so many men persist in sending pictures of their junk to women? Has it ever brought them success (sexually)? Is there a single woman on the face of the earth who would be aroused or attracted by that? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/136 "2018-12-06T18:30:59Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Define “mob justice”. Because I feel like you’re either strawmanning or off topic here. “Social repercussions” over an allegation when “social repercussions” can include loss of job or being expelled from school because of how potentially damaging a “viral” story can go is one form of commonly used mob justice. Of course and in particular on this website any definition of any term will be far from universally inclusive or accepted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/137 "2018-12-06T18:33:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise. If a man thinks that as long as he doesn’t harass women, he won’t be accused of harassment, then he wouldn’t feel the need to go far out of his way to avoid women - he’d just continue interacting with them, non-harassingly, as before. But if a man thinks he could be accused even if he’s done nothing wrong, then he will feel the need to take far-reaching precautions. No, it’s the attendant “believe all women” meme, not that a substantial number of accusations are false. It’s that accusations are to instantly be treated as true or as evidence of a crime, regardless of male behavior. Since women span the same gamut of law-abiding to criminal that men do as a gestalt group, even a man who has done absolutely nothing can face a false accusation. This happened to a college student in the last few years- his face was plastered all over campus as something like “Rapist of the Month”; he was essentially randomly pictured (no rape, he was in fact a virgin) to “bring attention to the problem” by an activist group. While straightened out formally, the social impacts can and do last. Is it likely that any individual woman will make a false accusation, or an accusation based on incomplete context? Absolutely not. Are there women who will? A small minority. Is there any way of identifying who might wield this power arbitrarily? Nope, not unless they’ve developed such a pattern and documentation to this extent is provable (Tawana Bradley’s escalating accusations against men who poked holes in her story, her identifying as rapists the men it was most convenient for her to have raped her in an escalating story is such a pattern). Solution: Avoid the situation, eliminate the risk. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/138 "2018-12-06T18:34:35Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > :eek::eek: > > Why do so many men persist in sending pictures of their junk to women? Has it ever brought them success (sexually)? > > Is there a single woman on the face of the earth who would be aroused or attracted by that? Well, my wife responded with her own pictures. Granted, we were long distance and super-serious at the time, and had an established sexual relationship, and were mid-sexting, but you did ask. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/139 "2018-12-06T18:34:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > “Social repercussions” over an allegation when “social repercussions” can include loss of job or being expelled from school because of how potentially damaging a “viral” story can go is one form of commonly used mob justice. Of course and in particular on this website any definition of any term will be far from universally inclusive or accepted. What are you actually objecting to? What am I, as a supporter of #MeToo, doing wrong? Or what are other #MeToo supporters doing wrong, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626/140 "2018-12-06T18:36:24Z")
Knowing someone who was demonstrably accused falsely of sexual harassment “cancels” one hundred real ones. A guy I know was stalked by a co-workers, whom he’d dated, and she kept it on and on. The HR people simply said “don’t respond, don’t do anything”. She was fired, but his position was so compromised that he went on to another job. When you hear that story, guys think of every instance where even the slightest possibility of a misunderstanding has happened and our ball shrivel. I can’t even remotely think of sexually harassing women and I’ve always worked of majority female jobs, but still I can see that I’ve taken a couple of “steps back” and treat women, professionally yet more distant and less care-free than with men, even with women with whom I’m 99.99999% sure they’d never even think of a false accusation Yup, I’m a fucking sexist pig, or somethin’. “Believe women” means “don’t believe men” even if there is only the remotest of chances of the accusation being true. I don’t care how few the false accusations are, if it’s against me it’s 100%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash-is-hurting-women-bloomberg-article/825626.md?page=8)