# \#METOO backlash **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 29, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766 "2018-01-29T23:25:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/101 "2018-02-01T03:00:11Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > An example of being prudent and aware might be for a an adult man alone choosing NOT to sit on a bench near a children’s playground every day at the same time for several weeks with binoculars and a camera. Maybe you’re actually bird watching and a rare species nests in the trees near the playground, and you never even notice the kids, but such behavior would not be prudent I see. Would you say it is not prudent for a women to wear skimpy clothes down a dark alley for fear that she might be raped? Telling a guy that “well, you shouldn’t have been bird watching next to a playground” smacks of victim blaming to me. > [@](#): > > I’m sure most people are never falsely accused, but I make judgments based on my rule of _“what are the consequences of a miscalculation?”_ and the consequences these days for a man of hanging around a kids’ playground with a camera could be devastating to him. Sad but true Is it true? Do you have any cites of men whose lives were ruined because they were bird watching next to a kid’s playground? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/102 "2018-02-01T03:05:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This would be the irrational fear that I am talking about. Why do you say that, given what happened? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/103 "2018-02-01T03:09:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. Would you say it is not prudent for a women to wear skimpy clothes down a dark alley for fear that she might be raped? Absolutely yes. It is not smart. > [@](#): > > Telling a guy that “well, you shouldn’t have been bird watching next to a playground” smacks of victim blaming to me. To me, it’s accepting reality and using common sense. I don’t accept the concept of “victim blaming.” > [@](#): > > Is it true? Do you have any cites of men whose lives were ruined because they were bird watching next to a kid’s playground? As I said, absurdity doesn’t play well with me. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/104 "2018-02-01T03:11:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Why do you “absolutely” believe the women who are telling their stories of sexual harassment, violence, abuse, and even rape at work, school, and in other situations? Do you personally know these accusers? Why are they more believable than the accused? > > Are women (and men) sexual harassed, violated, abused, and even rape at work, school, and in other situations? Some are, so the general answer is yes. But should everyone who makes these claims be believed without expecting them to provide some actual proof? History has also shown that there have been many proven cases of false claims. > > What is the intention of this movement? I assume it’s to encourage more women (and men) to speak out about what they consider to be harassment. But that shouldn’t give accusers carte blanche, or cover, to make false claims. Each claim needs to be investigated on an individual basis. IMHO, of course. > > Should businesses only hire women? I doubt that that will fix the harassment problem. Should businesses only hire men? That’s already illegal. Businesses will continue to hire men and women. Fear of lawsuits will force companies to provide co-existence training. Should men and women trust women and men? The answer is no. The intention of the movement, to the best of my knowledge, was to overcome the institutional protections of serial predators. Cosby, Weinstein, and this Larry Nasser freak are examples of people who had power over numerous victims, requiring a movement to take them down. Individual accusations were all over the place and were ignored, dismissed, bought off, covered up. Anyone saying a single accusation ruins people has missed all the media coverage that proves this to be false. #MeToo has nothing whatsoever to do with people looking darkly upon men hanging around small children. It is likely comprised of people who want to toss fake victims off of bridges. There is room for men in #MeToo because men also experience sexual assault and harassment. We could have an entirely different hashtag that deals with people filing false claims or being stupid when it comes to stranger danger. I’d much rather see that than resentful complaining about theoretical peril in response to the women out there sharing stories, publicly and painfully, of real abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/105 "2018-02-01T03:12:53Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > To me, it’s accepting reality and using common sense. I don’t accept the concept of “victim blaming.” Well, surprise on me, something we agree on. Perhaps you could provide some stories where men were detained/arrested/investigated for bird watching next to a playground. After all, that was a scenario that YOU mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/106 "2018-02-01T03:20:05Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Why do you say that, given what happened? :dubious: What happened? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/107 "2018-02-01T03:22:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What happened? You read my entire post (presumably) and then said my fear was irrational. So please explain how it was irrational, since that is your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/108 "2018-02-01T03:27:06Z")
You said “I didn’t go to the ER, because I was afraid of what she would tell them after something like that came out of her mouth” So you didn’t go to the ER. And then in your next post you said “Why do you say that, given what happened?” Did something happen to justify your fear? That was my question. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/109 "2018-02-01T03:45:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You said “I didn’t go to the ER, because I was afraid of what she would tell them after something like that came out of her mouth” > > So you didn’t go to the ER. And then in your next post you said “Why do you say that, given what happened?” > > Did something happen to justify your fear? That was my question. You didn’t ask that. You pointed to my post as an example of irrational fear. Given the trajectory of our marriage, there was no irrational fear here. Our marriage ended when she tried to kick me out of the house with nothing but the clothes on my back and tell me I couldn’t come back until she was no longer afraid of me. I said no, because that was bullshit. I wasn’t leaving my cats, my computer, all my worldly goods under her control until an impossible condition was fulfilled. She had zero reason to fear me because I never hit her. She was the one assaulting me. She then spent a day going through her phone book in alphabetical order, calling everyone and telling them that I was beating her and that she feared for her life. She made the mistake of calling my sister and telling her this. After an hour on the phone, my sister came over and spoke to her for two hours on the porch outside. My sister then came down to me, ashen faced, told me to come with her and drove me straight to Family Court to file an Order for Protection. Along the way she told me a number of things, the most important being; 1\> What my then wife was saying, 2\> That my sister had asked for examples of me abusing her and my ex-wife was unable to come up with a single one. (!!!) 3\> That my wife had admitted to hitting me. 4\> That she honestly believed my wife was planning to kill me and was just setting up her excuses for why she had to do it, by painting me as a monster. So, given that YOU had no idea of the history here and don’t know me or her, why would you just assume that my fears were irrational, as you stated? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/110 "2018-02-01T03:52:17Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So, given that YOU had no idea of the history here and don’t know me or her, why would you just assume that my fears were irrational, as you stated? You said you were “afraid of what she would tell them after something like that came out of her mouth” What did you base that fear on? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/111 "2018-02-01T03:53:45Z")
Oh good fucking grief. Figure it out for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/112 "2018-02-01T03:54:46Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Oh good fucking grief. Figure it out for yourself. Really? I’m asking you. I had no such fear taking my wife to the ER when she was trying to kick the door down. Why did you have that fear? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/113 "2018-02-01T10:28:50Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Just behave decently towards everyone. Why is this so fucking hard for people to comprehend? Did Aziz Ansari “behave decently” towards Grace? Did she “behave decently” towards him? This is not a trivial question. > [@elbows](#): > > I find little patience for men feeling, ‘every innocent interaction is now fraught with peril!’ You cannot be serious! > > This conversation _begins_ with the hard, straight up FACT, that women’s lives ARE continuous guantlets of ‘innocent interactions’ being actually fraught, with ACTUAL freaking peril. > > Not, they could lose their job, or good standing ‘peril’, but you could lose your life peril! > > Men seeing the extent of it as fatiguing, need to consider how fatiguing it is to live it, in my opinion. Leaving aside the issue of “men are more often the victims of violent crime”, when it comes to responses to this scares me/this worries me/this hurts me, “good, maybe you’ll get some perspective” is pretty shitty. > [@Isamu](#): > > That Texas lobbyist is a precious little bunny rabbit. If someone accuses you of wrongdoing when you are innocent you stick to your denial and the truth will win out. You don’t stop hanging around women (coworkers and friends) because you fear they will lie to the public about you harassing them. Ridiculous. > [@Isamu](#): > > No, I genuinely believe that if something is investigated usually the truth comes out. Or the accusations die down if nothing is found. Or you get kicked out of college with [basically no due process](https://whyy.org/articles/facing-title-ix-discrimination-suit-penn-settles-student-accused-rape/). That’s also a possibility. This is just wrong. Accusations of sexual harassment can destroy a career even when completely uncorroborated. They can destroy your social standing even if all it is is a whisper campaign. There’s a big push to “believe women” these days, and while a lot of rapes go unreported and unconvicted because women aren’t believed, the flipside is making it a lot easier for the uncommon (2-8%) false accusations of sexual misconduct to gain a foothold. This is a really hard problem, and I don’t have a good answer, but the reality right now is that one false accusation can very easily cost you your career or your eduction, and simply hoping “the truth will win out” is not rational. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Really? I’m asking you. I had no such fear taking my wife to the ER when she was trying to kick the door down. Why did you have that fear? My intuition: because if his wife then proceeded to say it was self-defense at the hospital, and deny everything, and accuse him of rape, he’d have an even bigger problem. Because this kind of abuse is _serious_, and your response to it misses the magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/114 "2018-02-01T12:06:34Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > _Reductio ad absurdum_ means trying to disprove a sensible point by citing an extreme, absurd example. What sensible point? This thread is a screaming example of how humans fail at risk assessment. The only people who are scared are the irrational and the actual creepers. It’s like the people who worry about terrorism yet who drive to work every day. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/115 "2018-02-01T12:46:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Did Aziz Ansari “behave decently” towards Grace? Did she “behave decently” towards him? This is not a trivial question. … It’s neither a trivial question or a trivial answer: there’s a many-paged thread that contains arguments yea and nay for each of them. You really want to open that debate up here? How about we leave it that at the moment based on how each of them, through their individual perceptual filters, likely understood what was going on and what the other was communicating, believed they were behaving decently? Not sure if that is your intended point or not but if so I’d agree with it. There is not always agreement is every circumstance as to what “behave decently” would mean. The old “do not do unto others that which is hateful to you” maxim of decent behavior is not enough here. There are many things that I would not find objectionable at all if done unto me that a few women might, especially if they perceive themselves as being at a lower power status. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/116 "2018-02-01T13:28:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It’s neither a trivial question or a trivial answer: there’s a many-paged thread that contains arguments yea and nay for each of them. You really want to open that debate up here? No, I really don’t, and the whole point I was making is that it isn’t as simple as “be nice”. Which you seem to grok. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/117 "2018-02-01T15:37:51Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > There’s a non-zero chance of being harassed for being a guy minding your own business in a park, and this is one area where I _do_ think society can improve while not opening themselves up to danger: after all how many abductions occur in broad daylight in a busy park from a person who had been previously lingering on a bench and not interacting with anyone? And we’re not talking just getting the stink-eye but cops coming and everything. _All else being equal_, trying to avoid even passively being around children is warranted: after all, the risk is low but not nonexistent and by definition you are not making a lifestyle modification to exercise this caution. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Did Aziz Ansari “behave decently” towards Grace? Did she “behave decently” towards him? This is not a trivial question. > This is just wrong. Accusations of sexual harassment can destroy a career even when completely uncorroborated. They can destroy your social standing even if all it is is a whisper campaign. There’s a big push to “believe women” these days, and while a lot of rapes go unreported and unconvicted because women aren’t believed, the flipside is making it a lot easier for the uncommon (2-8%) false accusations of sexual misconduct to gain a foothold. This is a really hard problem, and I don’t have a good answer, but the reality right now is that one false accusation can very easily cost you your career or your eduction, and simply hoping “the truth will win out” is not. With regards to Grace and Aziz. I think Grace thought she was on her first date with her new boyfriend. I think Aziz thought he was having a one-off hook-up with a fan girl. Both behaved exactly like I would expect someone to behave in their respective situations. But they weren’t on the same date. Bad communication due to a lack of definition in the relationship. And FYI - In New York City it is illegal for adults to hang around some public playgrounds unless they have a child playing there. There was one near my office once that would’ve been a really nice place to sit and eat lunch ( and there wasn’t a comparable outdoor space open to adults ) so I found that policy somewhat annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/118 "2018-02-01T15:46:04Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > And FYI - In New York City it is illegal for adults to hang around some public playgrounds unless they have a child playing there. Wow, there’s a law begging for a court challenge. Of course, you say “some”, so I guess I’d want to look into that further before I could determine that. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/119 "2018-02-01T15:53:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps you could provide some stories where men were detained/arrested/investigated for bird watching next to a playground. After all, that was a scenario that YOU mentioned. Not a playground, but an anecdote in the spirit of your question. A co-worker (middle aged male) went to a local college campus one evening last fall to listen to a talk on some computer programming topic. While on campus, he asked some female students where XXXX hall was. Within a few minutes, campus police had detained him. Since he felt he had done nothing wrong, he was answering their questions honestly (“Yes, I am on campus after hours”, “Yes, I am not a student or faculty”, “Yes, I did talk to some female students”). I am not sure how formal the ban was, but he was advised it would be in his best interest to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766/120 "2018-02-01T16:21:20Z")
I think it’s easy to forget that men are subject to stereotypical thinking just as women are. It’s a fact that most women will leave their children with other women without a qualm because, as we all know, pedophiles are MEN. Ironically, most of the last dozen or so celebrated cases in the Chicago area of teachers sexually molesting their students involved WOMEN, not men. Also, when a man sexually abuses a girl, he is a horrid monster victimizing a helpless angel while, conversely, when a women sexually abuses a boy, it is often laughed off with comments like: “Yeah, I wish I could have been ‘sexually molested’ by the babe of a Biology teacher I had when I was in high school!” It’s just not viewed the same by a lot of people. Spousal abuse is also viewed differently by many. If a women is abused, she can get help and a large support group. Men who are abused often remain silent because of fear of ridicule. “Wow, tough guy, your wife beat you up?! Need a bodyguard?!” They can often be viewed more like pansies than victims, and it isn’t fair. In addition, a women can lie and say her husband attacked her and she was simply defending herself. How readily would the same explanation be accepted if it came from a man even if it was true? I think we should all just respect one another and be considerate. I’ve been asked out occasionally by guys at work. I’m not offended by it. I just answer that I never date in the work place because there are just too many possible problems associated with it. Only once did that not suffice, but it only took a slightly stronger response from me to end the discussion. To me, “harassment” means “consistent and repeated”. Women should keep that in mind because, along with the right to complain comes the responsibility to be fair. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/metoo-backlash/807766.md?page=7)