Metric Sucks!

Well I suppose it depends on what you mean by “equivalent”, then. Since everyone has been harping on the ease of decimal representation, I figured it was loading the dice to do things differently. If the point of contention is no longer a matter of representation but of customary use, then I think the fair question would be to ask not random people but people inclined to do such measurements, such as carpenters and so on, and use the conventions specific to those fields.

If we are accepting convention, I see no reason to load the dice. I use decimal inches most commonly because I do my measurements with calipers. I doubt I am alone in decimal inches. Convention is where you find it.

If Joe Schmoe can’t figure out the difference between three-eighths and one sixteenth, all this demonstrates (to me) is that Joe Schmoe is not used to performing fractional arithmetic problems in his head.

Would it be easier if everything was given a decimal representation? I honestly don’t know, and I have never claimed to know in the four pages of this thread. Given human fallibility and what I have seen of the “average” person performing any calculations in the head, I find the claim dubious at best. A whole lot of people largely suck at applied or abstract mathematics.

An example of where decimals are problematic for architects?

Anytime there is a fraction that is eternally repeating. Suppose you have to dimension a building facade with CMU blocks that are one meter and adjacent bricks that are 1/3 the height of a CMU block. How would you dimension the height of the brick?

Another example. If the width of a room is 6 meters and the required area this room is 44 square meters, how would you dimenstion the required length?

While there are plenty of situations where even a system using fractions gets hairy, for architcetural systems that typically rely on less complated blocking for structure (on a larger scale), using fractions usually works out fine.

And if you want to know how complicated sizing of materials factors into the logic, I’d give three okay reasons why fractions are still fine. First, as long as everyone is using the same conventions (fractions with denominators 2,4,8.16.32.64), then all parties involved are compatible. Second, as mention before, having 6 possible whole-number denominators gives more flexibility than the 4 whole-number denominators that 10 has, hence friendlier fractions. Third (and not meant to be taken so seriously), if the system were too easy to use, then how would the architects weed out the dummies from becoming architects?

Why exactly couldn’t you specify half a meter, or a third of a meter, or a sixth of a meter, if you wanted to? The point is that every unit in the customary system was picked arbitrarily. An inch had nothing to do with a foot, a foot had nothing to do with a yard, a yard had nothing to do with a mile, a pound and the various ounces were created by different people for different uses, and were never intermixed. Bushel, pecks, hogsheads, acres, furlongs, fathoms, rods, grains, stones, all were invented without a thought for interconverting.

That worked all right back in medieval times. No one cared how many ounces were in a bushel, the question never came up.

But now we are living in an age of science and engineering. 5280 feet per mile? What in god’s name is that? The answer is that they just measured a mile, and measured a foot, and figured out that the traditional foot and the traditional mile had that conversion factor.

But of course, this makes no sense. There should be one unit of length, one unit of volume, one unit of mass, etc. And the pro-traditionalists are correct that the unit we choose is completely arbitrary. It would make just as much sense to choose the inch or the foot as the basic unit of length rather than the meter. That is, IF we were starting over and generating a system from scratch. But it turns out that there is already a system in place that a lot of people around the world are using, that already has these basic units picked out. Since the basic units are arbitrary, it would be much easier just to use the same unit that everyone else uses.

And it would only be more easy to use base-12 measuring systems if we used a base-12 numbering system. Sure, a base-12 numbering system presents some advantages. However, our current system of arabic numbers has been in use for hundreds of years and works very well…the advantages of base-12 or base-16 or base-2 are pretty subtle. Since we are not going to start over with a new number system based on dozens, we are stuck with arabic numbers and base-10. Given that, decimal units for our measuring system make the most sense, since it makes math much easier.

Now, measurement of time is a problem. The trouble is that we have several natural units of time…the day, the year, and the month…but none are interconvertible since they have no essential relationship with each other. We could pick a natural unit as our base unit of time, but there’s no real reason to do that. And anyway, once we are talking about getting off this planet there’s no reason to stick with earth’s astronomy anyway. So we already have a unit of time called the second. The exact length of the second is unimportant, just that it has a particular length. So we choose the second as our fundamental unit of time.

So we are agreed on a decimal measuring system. We are agreed that the units are arbitrary. So then the currently-in-use metric system becomes the overwhelmingly superior choice.

If we were starting over, we might teach our children binary or dozens or base-30 (123*5) number systems. We might choose as our fundemental units something else, depending on our predjudices…say planck length, or the vibration of a hydrogen nucleus. But even if we chose some units that were fundamental in some ways, in most everyday uses that wouldn’t make a difference. Most of the time they’d seem pretty arbitrary. And therefore only slightly superior to our already existing measuring scheme, the metric system.

Bottom line, metric rules, traditional drools.

erislover, I have not seen so much handwaving, bush beating, weaseling and backpedaling in a long time.

OK, so store clerks are not representative of the general population who might need to do such calculations? Why is that? We are talking about pretty basic calculations that everybody and anybody might need to do at one time or another. Buying blinds or fabric is reserved for engineers? Don’t be silly.

Ok, so we ask 100 American carpenters: How much is 3’ 9+7/8" minus two times 3/4"? that is what they normally use: fractions of an inch. We ask them in English or Spanish, whatever they understand best.

In France: How much is 116.5 cm minus two times 2 cm? Because that is the way they normally do it. We ask them in their own language.

Not that at this point I would expect a straight answer from you but I think the rest of the readers of the thread have got the idea by now.

No one is so blind as the one who does not want to see.

sailor, when you’re done turning red in the face you will find that I have said, “I don’t know” several times to questions like that. Because my experiences show me people generally suck at math regardless of the representation used, I do not see a preference between the two systems.

If you would like, I can keep suggesting to you that I am not aware of what the results of such an experiment would be. I am always happy to repeat myself in that capacity. I have suggested that standards and customs are the strongest force in selecting measuring systems, and that secondarily the universiality of a system would influence this as well. Why certain systems became more dominant is a matter of history and sociology, both of which largely don’t interest me.

What I have not done is made guesses or suggestions at why competing arbitrary systems are better, and I will likely never do so. If that means I am blind, so be it.

I’m happy to oblige, of course. Can you show me what positions I’ve retracted and or backpedaled on? Care to highlight what I’m weaseling around? Is it that unsatisfying to you that I do not see any huge reason to choose between arbitrary systems?

Someone reading this thread might get the impression I am against the metric system the way you are approaching this issue with me.

Both numbers in decimals? Try finding a hardware store in the U.S. where the sales clerk can measure you a 3 foot, 8.375 inch long window blind.

Some U.S. manufacturers do use decimal inches, true, but the fact remains that inch divisions are entrenched throughout the land as fractions with powers-of-two in their denominators. Centimeters started out from the get-go as being divided into tenths (millimeters) rather than halves, quarters, eighths, and sixteenths, so anyone with metric measuring equipment can measure you a 114.5 cm blind (or a 103.2 cm blind, for that matter).

This one difference alone gives an immediate advantage to metric measurement, other considerations notwithstanding.

This one difference alone gives an immediate advantage to metric measurement, other considerations notwithstanding.

Why is that, tracer? What makes .5 better than 1/2?

Both numbers in decimals? Try finding a hardware store in the U.S. where the sales clerk can measure you a 3 foot, 8.375 inch long window blind.

I don’t see why it matters, so long as window blinds are what they are and they work just fine. Maybe I’m too much of a pragmatist? :stuck_out_tongue:

Or are you saying that there aren’t standard sized blinds when people switch to the metric system? I’m afraid I’m missing something. Sorry to be obtuse there, tracer.

erislover:

The original problem was:

One of your suggestions to get around having to subtract those messy fractions with different denominators was to do the whole thing in decimal. Thus, the problem would become:

And my response was, “Yeah, but where are you going to find a sales clerk who can measure a 3 foor, 8.375 inch blind? Their measuring tools are all in fractions of an inch with powers-of-two in the denominator, not in decimal inches.”

And the problem would become even worse if you had a 3 foot, 1 1/8 inch window and you wanted a 3/4 inch margin around the outside, because to do that in decimal you’d probably have to convert to decimal feet!

Here’s another query about the US standard: Why the heck aren’t highway signs marked in tenths of a mile like the odometers are? Alternatively, the odometers could be graduated in 1/4 miles, 1/2 miles, etc.

So, tracer, the problem is that when we want to switch conventions, it is difficult to do so? Or that blinds accurate to one sixteenth of an inch just aren’t good enough for space shuttles or…? (trying to be light-hearted, not snarky).

inch, foot, mile
ounce, pound, ton
ounce, cup, gallon

vs.

centimeter, meter, kilometer
gram, kilogram, ton
mililiter, deciliter, liter

The SI units are just so much more cumbersome to say, that’s enough against them in my book.

I’m an engineering student and I hate doing problems in the English system.
The best thing about the SI system is how the units interact, not just that you can move the comma up and down. The way that Pascals, Newtons, Watts, Kelvin, etc. interact so well in formulas with the metric units is beautiful.
Also the neat way that a 1000 liters is a cubic meter (how many gallons in a cubic yard is anyone’s guess) and the fact that the density of water in metric is 1 kg/ltr, and it’s boiling temperature is 100 C… so on and so on.
The metric system was created to be the most practical system possible and it was engineered this way.
A good way to settle this argument is to have two students solve identical thermodynamics problems but one has to solve it in English measurements and the other in SI units. I would put my money on the SI units student.
I just think that the English system is too inefficient to use in engineering (I despise whenever units such as “horsepower” show up in a problem).

Have you guys noticed that when you say 11 inches, or 134 feet, you are really talking in base 10?

If we are going to change to a base 12 system we would have to create 2 more symbols that serve as numbers.

IMO this would be even more painful. I use base 16 all the time, and it’s not trivial to add F3 to 2B.

By the way, Metric System rules! :stuck_out_tongue: what Nanu says is very true.

Is there any equivalent to Coulombs, Faradium? if not, you’d have to transform all the units to SI so you can work correctly on electronic problems.

Oh, and emarkp, I hope you’re kidding.

Yes, you are being willfully obtuse. Blinds have to be cut to size just like fabric, pipes, lumber and many other things. Saying “buy ready made clothes and avoid the problem” is just silly. Somebody has to solve the problem whether it is the customer or the guy at the store or the factory. And the fact is that the decimal metric system has proven to be superior in convenience and reliability of use. Denying that is like denying tobacco causes cancer.

  • Saying “buy ready made clothes and avoid the problem” is just silly.*

So can you explain to me what is done now, then? Or do people just throw their hands in the air and say it can’t be done?

A facetious note…

It is likely that any number representation system we come up with is base 10.

For example, I decide I want to count in base 8.

This means that I need the first 8 numbers, including 0.

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7

This doesn’t include 8. 8 is in fact 10 (1 x 8 and nothing else)

It turns into a base 10 system!

Presuming we always keep the standard numbers, by defenition 10 should equal the base number in any number representation system.

Of course, which is why the claim “but to multiply by ten you only have to move the decimal place!” is such a load of hooey. To multiply by 16 in hex you only have to move the decimal place. Big deal.

sailor, I am going to, mysteriously, be nice to you for a moment. It seems to me you are arguing that we, that is humans in modern society, are requiring measuring activities that exceed the limits of customary use of the standard american system (to wit, fractional representation). And I am saying: that itself will cause us to modify custom, or switch measurement systems (one of two solutions to the issue).

All that irritates me is the notion that one measurement system is better than another. Of course, people would actually have to read my posts to gain that information, far too much to expect from a resurrected thread, I understand.