# Michael Brown evidence slowly being released. Case is falling apart. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167 "2014-10-22T18:08:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/121 "2014-10-24T02:36:54Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > All of it does. But like I said earlier, the police have only themselves to blame. Things that they might have gotten away with years ago (and were wrong then) are now recorded by a dozen people with cellphones. People say it’s open season on police. I disagree, it’s more like open season on the people they wrong is over. > > It doesn’t take but a few bad actors to ruin the reputation of the rest. When something like this happens the police now have to demonstrate why they should be believed after so many examples proving why they shouldn’t be. It’s up to the police themselves to restore their reputation, “policing the police”, as it were. Rather than backing the scumbags that hide behind a badge they need to cut them loose. Only then will faith be restored. > > Now, I’m not saying that the officer in this case did wrong. I simply don’t know one way or the other. But I do know that 10 years ago me posting something like this would have been unthinkable. That is the measure of my loss of faith in the integrity of the police in this country. And THAT is what I find inordinately tiring about the whole situation. I think this is really important to the debate, especially to those on the “pro Wilson” side who can’t/don’t understand why their ideological/debate opponents are reacting (to them and in general) the way they are. For many large swaths of the population, the police have simply lost the benefit of the doubt, and in this particular situation, many of the Fergueson department’s actions have certainly fit past patterns, so why should they believe leaks like the OP’s from that same department? I mean, when the prosecutor in charge of Wilson’s case is VP of a company that sells t-shirts that support Wilson, one shouldn’t be surprised at the disbelief in the police and the system itself. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/122 "2014-10-24T03:05:04Z")
To throw some numbers into here, a [Minnesota State University-Mankato study](http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/) found that a an average subject could run 21 feet in 1.5-1.7 seconds, the fastest subject in 1.27 seconds, and the slowest in 2.5 seconds (21 feet is widely considered the distance that a subject can stab a LEO before the officer can shoot the subject, though there’s a lot of controversy on the exact distance). Scaling up to 30 feet, the fastest runner could do it in 1.8 seconds, the average bloke in 2.1-2.4 seconds, and the slowest in 3.6 seconds. That’s perilously little time to react. On the other hand, the officer had probably unholstered his gun at that time, and we know in hindsight that Brown wasn’t armed. ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/123 "2014-10-24T03:22:12Z")
The idea that any drug whatsoever automatically removes your sense of self preservation or fear is ludicrous and harmful to society. The guy toking on a joint a few hours before hand does not equal him being a stone cold killer at the time of the shooting. Other things contributed to this incident no doubt, but a bit of weed does not a case make. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/124 "2014-10-24T03:40:51Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Fraid not. Every board I’ve ever used wanted any quoted material at the bottom. The idea being the post is what matters and the quote is a reference. > > I’ll do it backwards if that is preferred here. Quotes on top. _Wow._ May I ask what alternate reality these other boards existed in that you’ve used? > [@JesterX](#): > > Thirty feet IS a short distance but it’s a lot longer than when they were fighting over the gun. It makes ZERO sense that Brown first ran from the gun, then turned around and ran TO the gun. It makes a lot more sense that Brown surrendered and Wilson gunned him down because he was pissed off about being attacked. This is pretty difficult to ignore; one explanation defies human behavior and instinct, the other explanation captures it perfectly. The presence of THC in his system, one way or another, is irrelevant here and is only being used to confuse the issue. Anyone who has ever smoke pot knows this. > [@Onyerbike](#): > > The idea that any drug whatsoever automatically removes your sense of self preservation or fear is ludicrous and harmful to society. The guy toking on a joint a few hours before hand does not equal him being a stone cold killer at the time of the shooting. Other things contributed to this incident no doubt, but a bit of weed does not a case make. . Thank you. +1 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/125 "2014-10-24T04:06:38Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Or someone who was inappropriately acting as if he was robbed, and Brown might be rightly annoyed by that. (post shortened) Eyewitness Johnson has already admitted that Brown robbed the store. \*FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) - The friend who was with Michael Brown when he was shot and killed by a police officer near St. Louis over the weekend is reportedly confirming that he and Brown had taken part in the theft of cigars from a convenience store that day. That word comes from the attorney for Dorian Johnson, speaking to MSNBC. Police in Ferguson had earlier announced that Brown was suspected of taking cigars from the convenience store in what was described as a “strong-arm robbery.”\* [http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/](http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/126 "2014-10-24T04:09:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Are you honestly suggesting that smoking marijuana can make you ignore a bullet wound? > [@Onyerbike](#): > > The idea that any drug whatsoever automatically removes your sense of self preservation or fear is ludicrous and harmful to society. The guy toking on a joint a few hours before hand does not equal him being a stone cold killer at the time of the shooting. Other things contributed to this incident no doubt, but a bit of weed does not a case make. All drugs turn Black men into homicidal maniacs that feel no pain and are capable of Superman level feats of strength . . . haven’t we seen this every other time there’s been a Black man with even the slightest level of any substance in his blood? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/127 "2014-10-24T04:28:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > This is what, 4 times that you’ve repeated this. Is it true yet? > > Let’s go to what, a (white) construction worker who was working in the area. (post shortened) There is, I believe, a significant difference between forensic evidence and eyewitness statements. Especially when the eyewitness is not speaking under oath where they can be cross examined. Some eyewitnesses said Brown was shot while running away from the officer. Forensic evidence indicated that Brown was shot while facing the officer. Some eyewitnesses said Brown didn’t reach into the police vehicle. Forensic evidence indicates that Brown was first shot while his right arm was in the vehicle and his hand was near the officers firearm. The position of the firearm could be determined from the trajectory of the bullet(s) path thru the vehicle door to where they hit a building. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/128 "2014-10-24T10:05:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Some eyewitnesses said Brown was shot while running away from the officer. Forensic evidence indicated that Brown was shot while facing the officer. Which witnesses are you talking about? What exactly did they say? Did anyone say that he was shot dead while running away? No. _Everyone_ agrees that he was shot to death while facing Wilson, which matches the forensic evidence. From the part you shortened out of my post: > [@](#): > > About 90 feet away from the car, the worker said, Wilson fired another shot at Brown, whose back was turned. > > The worker said Brown stumbled and then stopped, put his hands up, turned around and said, “OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.” Some witnesses say that he was shot _at_ while running away, stopped, and turned around. At least one of those witnesses thought he was hit by that shot. He may have been mistaken. Are you going to hang your hat on that discrepancy like it’s some sort of huge gotcha ya!? Especially when _all_ of the witnesses agree that he was running away, stopped, turned, and was killed? The basic facts of which _are_ supported by the autopsy? > [@doorhinge](#): > > Some eyewitnesses said Brown didn’t reach into the police vehicle. Forensic evidence indicates that Brown was first shot while his right arm was in the vehicle and his hand was near the officers firearm. The position of the firearm could be determined from the trajectory of the bullet(s) path thru the vehicle door to where they hit a building. Again, who exactly are you talking about and what exactly did they say? Nobody has said that there wasn’t an altercation at the police vehicle. Nobody has said that Brown’s arm wasn’t in the vehicle. So who the hell are you talking about? Some witnesses have said that his arm was _pulled_ into the vehicle, Wilson has said that he _reached_ into the vehicle. Neither of those scenarios are contradicted by the physical evidence. I don’t think I can spell this out any clearer. Are you actually reading what witnesses have said, or are you just sort of summarizing this case from headlines and taking statements like the thread title at face value without really looking at the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/129 "2014-10-24T15:29:22Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > It doesn’t take but a few bad actors to ruin the reputation of the rest. When something like this happens the police now have to demonstrate why they should be believed after so many examples proving why they shouldn’t be. It’s up to the police themselves to restore their reputation, “policing the police”, as it were. Rather than backing the scumbags that hide behind a badge they need to cut them loose. Only then will faith be restored. Sure, but the problem here is that the ONLY thing that will restore any faith/prevent violence and rioting is the total exoneration of Brown and crucifixion of Wilson. And that’s a problem- if Wilson turns out to be in the right, and the grand jury declines to indict him, then justice has been served, but the crowd in Ferguson will surely riot as if there was a terrible miscarriage of justice. I agree that past cops have done some shitty things, and it does seem like there’s way too much of an 'Us vs. Them" attitude among cops, but what are they supposed to do if Wilson’s not indicted, or is found innocent at trial? Offer Wilson up as some sort of sacrifice at the altar of making the police look better? Any other decision is only going to make the divide deeper. That, I think is my frustration with the reaction of the Black community to recent events like the Trayvon Martin shooting and the Ferguson stuff; there’s ONE possible outcome that’s acceptable, and that position is decided by popular acclaim well before the facts come out. It’s a sort of media-enabled bullying, if you ask me, and it doesn’t do the impartiality of the justice system any good. Nobody ever comes out and calls for calm and an acceptance of the grand jury and the courts’ decisions; it’s always a call for retributive justice before there are any facts in the case beyond there being a white law enforcement officer and a black person involved. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/130 "2014-10-24T16:35:50Z")
Why do people automatically think the worst of the police in cases like this? Man…[I dunno.](http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/adrian-montesano/) Far as I know, the police never so much as paid for new wallpaper in the businesses they peppered with bullets, never mind any kind of repercussions for executing two surrendering, unarmed suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/131 "2014-10-24T16:42:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Can you link there is no known test for active THC in urine? Thanks **Snowboarder Bo** is wrong, obviously. From the CA NORML website: > [@](#): > > The most popular kind of drug test is the urine test, which can detect marijuana for days or weeks after use. [Cite](http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/drugtestguide/drugtestdetection.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/132 "2014-10-24T16:44:45Z")
Or just Google “Shot self in head while handcuffed”…multiple cases there. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/133 "2014-10-24T16:54:43Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Why do people automatically think the worst of the police in cases like this? Man…[I dunno.](http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/adrian-montesano/) > > Far as I know, the police never so much as paid for new wallpaper in the businesses they peppered with bullets, never mind any kind of repercussions for executing two surrendering, unarmed suspects. So, if I understand you - When a suspect tries to rob a drugstore to feed his drug habit, it goes bad and he kidnaps a hostage and holds her at gunpoint, then escapes and shoots a police officer, steals his squad car, abandons it and steals his grandmother’s car, then leads on a chase across the city before crashing the stolen car, it is the police’s fault for not recognizing telepathically that he is actually unarmed and trying peacefully to surrender? ([Cite)](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2623725/Major-concern-police-shootout-crashed-car-revealed-included-23-officers-firing-total-377-rounds-two-unarmed-men.html). Regards, Shodan PS - “policestateUSA”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/134 "2014-10-24T16:59:15Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > All of it does. But like I said earlier, the police have only themselves to blame. Things that they might have gotten away with years ago (and were wrong then) are now recorded by a dozen people with cellphones. People say it’s open season on police. I disagree, it’s more like open season on the people they wrong is over. > > It doesn’t take but a few bad actors to ruin the reputation of the rest. When something like this happens the police now have to demonstrate why they should be believed after so many examples proving why they shouldn’t be. It’s up to the police themselves to restore their reputation, “policing the police”, as it were. Rather than backing the scumbags that hide behind a badge they need to cut them loose. Only then will faith be restored. > > Now, I’m not saying that the officer in this case did wrong. I simply don’t know one way or the other. But I do know that 10 years ago me posting something like this would have been unthinkable. That is the measure of my loss of faith in the integrity of the police in this country. And THAT is what I find inordinately tiring about the whole situation. Excellent post, **Airman**. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/135 "2014-10-24T17:00:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, if I understand you - > > When a suspect tries to rob a drugstore to feed his drug habit, it goes bad and he kidnaps a hostage and holds her at gunpoint, then escapes and shoots a police officer, steals his squad car, abandons it and steals his grandmother’s car, then leads on a chase across the city before crashing the stolen car, it is the police’s fault for not recognizing telepathically that he is actually unarmed and trying peacefully to surrender? ([Cite)](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2623725/Major-concern-police-shootout-crashed-car-revealed-included-23-officers-firing-total-377-rounds-two-unarmed-men.html). > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - “policestateUSA”? :rolleyes: Thanks for the further info…Ill look into it. The initial link I read was from a normal Miami newspaper. Also, don’t roll your eyes at ‘policestate’. They have a lot of ‘good’ links also, such as that poor seven year old shot by a SWAT team. Also, so the police fired 300 shots at ‘a hostage’? edit: I guess he wasn’t the hostage, just some guy no one is sure how he ended up in the car. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/136 "2014-10-24T17:02:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Can you link there is no known test for active THC in urine? Thanks No. You made the claim; back it up. Provided the cite to the autopsy report that says what you claimed it said. Failure to do so will be regarded as admission that you were talking out of your ass without any idea if what you were saying was true or even possible. Put up or shut up. After you show me your cite, I’ll be happy to crush it like a bug made out of glass by providing my cites. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/137 "2014-10-24T17:04:38Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > …I don’t think I can spell this out any clearer. Are you actually reading what witnesses have said, or are you just sort of summarizing this case from headlines and taking statements like the thread title at face value without really looking at the evidence? (post shortened) There have been many “eyewitness” statements over the past several months. Most of them do not agree with the other “eyewitnesses” and some have changed or have been updated (😃 ). Eyewitness Johnson said that (the seated) Officer Wilson was choking the 6’ 5" Brown who was standing next to the vehicle. Johnson also said that Wilson was trying to drag a 289lb Brown thru the vehicle’s window. (I’m not sure Brown could have crawled thru the window even if he was being pushed, pulled, and greased from head to toe.) OTOH, there have been two coroner reports made public. Brown was 77 inches tall and weighed 289lbs. Excepts for the wounds to Brown’s hand and wrist, Brown’s bullet entrance wounds appear on the front of his body. There were two shots fired inside the police vehicle. One of those shots struck Brown’s hand and arm while it was in the vehicle. There are several eyewitness versions of Brown being shot while running away, standing still, walking towards the officer, and charging at the officer. I wonder how the bullet wounds match up with the coroners findings. If your arms are raised, your shirt rides up. When there are discrepancies between the forensic evidence and eyewitness accounts, I tend to believe the forensic evidence over the eyewitnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/138 "2014-10-24T17:05:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Excellent post, **Airman**. I disagree. There are plenty of Youtube links of police malfeasance…such as coaxing an escaped animal over so it can be shot…but still not nearly enough wiping out of the Thin Blue Line. ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/139 "2014-10-24T17:06:20Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Matt and Trey are probably thinking,“Didn’t we already satirize this in the second or third episode ever?” > > “It’s coming right at us!” Did any of the autopsy reports mention Patrick Duffy? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167/140 "2014-10-24T17:10:51Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > When there are discrepancies between the forensic evidence and eyewitness accounts, I tend to believe the forensic evidence over the eyewitnesses. And when there aren’t discrepancies but enough people say there are, you believe whatever you want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-brown-evidence-slowly-being-released-case-is-falling-apart/702167.md?page=8)