# Michael Cohen should get substaintial prison sentence even with his cooperation. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 8, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773 "2018-12-08T00:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/21 "2018-12-12T17:43:53Z")
Aye; [Cohen gets 3 years](https://www.apnews.com/d6dbb8b02a4446f6800de794b45523e6) is all. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/22 "2018-12-12T17:57:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Aye; [Cohen gets 3 years](https://www.apnews.com/d6dbb8b02a4446f6800de794b45523e6) is all. It wont be in a PMITA prison. Will he get conjugal visits? ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/23 "2018-12-12T18:08:37Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > It wont be in a PMITA prison. Will he get conjugal visits? :dubious: ? Don’t know that one. Is that like a Club Fed? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/24 "2018-12-12T18:12:50Z")
From the movie “Office Space”, it’s an acronym for “Pound Me In The Ass”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/25 "2018-12-12T22:51:23Z")
So I am not trying to be difficult, but please explain to me how Trump is himself shielded from legal recourse if his stooge is going to jail for what he was told to do…? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/26 "2018-12-12T22:57:24Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > So I am not trying to be difficult, but please explain to me how Trump is himself shielded from legal recourse if his stooge is going to jail for what he was told to do…? He isn’t. However the DOJ appears to be of the current opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted. On January 21, 2021, however, that may all change. Unless the “10 minute pardon” theory comes into play; Trump resigns 10 minutes before he is out of office, Pence is sworn in, and immediately pardons him for any and all crimes. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/27 "2018-12-13T15:44:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > He isn’t. However the DOJ appears to be of the current opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted. > > On January 21, 2021, however, that may all change. Unless the “10 minute pardon” theory comes into play; Trump resigns 10 minutes before he is out of office, Pence is sworn in, and immediately pardons him for any and all crimes. Seems like they need to find whoever might swear in Pence and make sure they’re incommunicado for an couple of days on either side of that period. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/28 "2018-12-13T21:46:14Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > He isn’t. However the DOJ appears to be of the current opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted. > > On January 21, 2021, however, that may all change. Unless the “10 minute pardon” theory comes into play; Trump resigns 10 minutes before he is out of office, Pence is sworn in, and immediately pardons him for any and all crimes. I guess that was what confused me–I keep seeing “Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator.” So the hitch is they just aren’t going after him while president. So does this carry over into all aspects of the Russian investigation–that no matter what tax or financial fraud/illegal actions, he will be allowed to serve out his term before anything is enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/29 "2018-12-13T23:04:40Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > I guess that was what confused me–I keep seeing “Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator.” So the hitch is they just aren’t going after him while president. Correct. > [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > So does this carry over into all aspects of the Russian investigation–that no matter what tax or financial fraud/illegal actions, he will be allowed to serve out his term before anything is enforced? Oh; you just had it right a second ago. No; he won’t necessarily be allowed to serve out his term; he just won’t be indicted while he’s still holding the title of POTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/30 "2018-12-13T23:41:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Aye; [Cohen gets 3 years](https://www.apnews.com/d6dbb8b02a4446f6800de794b45523e6) is all. Don’t be too sad yet. This may not be the end of his legal troubles, he’s still got the state of New York to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/31 "2018-12-14T02:04:52Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Don’t be too sad yet. This may not be the end of his legal troubles, he’s still got the state of New York to deal with. Doubt it. Don’t think New York changed their rules on double jeopardy regarding similar state crimes. They could probably find something to charge him, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/32 "2018-12-14T02:47:14Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > So I am not trying to be difficult, but please explain to me how Trump is himself shielded from legal recourse if his stooge is going to jail for what he was told to do…? There’s a different piece than just whether DOJ will indict while he’s still in office. Campaign finance is an area where ignorance of the law actually serves as a valid defense. The difference between a violation that’s just a civil matter and one that’s criminal is that the violator knowingly and willingly violates the law. ([Cite](http://time.com/5374619/donald-trump-campaign-finance-law-crimes/)) Evidence that Trump was directly involved in making the decision and telling Cohen to do something that is illegal is not enough to say that Trump committed a crime. I have yet to see evidence in the swirl of talk about being unindicted co-conspirator that Trump was aware he was violating the law. I might have missed something but that is an important element of the crime. Without that, Trump could be shielded from criminal charges even while Cohen was breaking the law. Ignorance can be both bliss AND a criminal defense. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/33 "2018-12-14T03:13:17Z")
No, I don’t think that’s exactly right. IANAL and I’ve been wrong plenty of times in my life, so no guarantee here. But as I understand it… The party has to _knowingly commit the act_. Knowing that the act is illegal isn’t a necessary element of guilt. If I’m walking down the street and happen upon an unattended Porsche with the key in the ignition and I hop in and drive it away, I’m guilty of Grand Theft Auto whether or not I’ve ever heard of that statute. So if Trump knowingly participated in the act of making a payoff in order to hide a potentially inconvenient fact that if revealed might negatively affect his election, and obfuscated the payoff as something else, he has knowingly committed that act. It is not necessary for him to specifically know that this violates campaign finance laws in order to be guilty of that crime. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/34 "2018-12-14T05:22:54Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > No, I don’t think that’s exactly right. IANAL and I’ve been wrong plenty of times in my life, so no guarantee here. But as I understand it… > > The party has to _knowingly commit the act_. Knowing that the act is illegal isn’t a necessary element of guilt. That is the general principle but DinoR is specifically saying that it’s different with campaign finance laws. Ignorance is not a defense for civil infractions but it is for criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/35 "2018-12-14T05:54:11Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > No, I don’t think that’s exactly right. IANAL and I’ve been wrong plenty of times in my life, so no guarantee here. But as I understand it… > > The party has to _knowingly commit the act_. Knowing that the act is illegal isn’t a necessary element of guilt. > > If I’m walking down the street and happen upon an unattended Porsche with the key in the ignition and I hop in and drive it away, I’m guilty of Grand Theft Auto whether or not I’ve ever heard of that statute. > > So if Trump knowingly participated in the act of making a payoff in order to hide a potentially inconvenient fact that if revealed might negatively affect his election, and obfuscated the payoff as something else, he has knowingly committed that act. It is not necessary for him to specifically know that this violates campaign finance laws in order to be guilty of that crime. Cohen, Manafort, and Trump have destroyed any chance they ever had of claiming this was just an inadvertent error. If a cop pulls you over and says _“You were speeding. This is a 30 mph zone.”_ And you respond by saying _“I’m sorry officer. I thought the speed limit here was 55.”_ then you can argue that you broke the law inadvertently. But if the cop pulls you over and says _“You were speeding. This is a 30 mph zone.”_ And you respond by saying _“What are you talking about officer? I was only driving 30 mph.”_ you’re no longer claiming an inadvertent violation. You’re now acknowledging that you were aware of what the speed limit was and are claiming you weren’t going faster than it. The fact that you are claiming you were in compliance with the law is an admission you were aware that the law existed. And that’s what Trump and his minions have been doing for the last two years. They’ve been claiming that they never broke the law even after they were informed about what the law says. They can’t go back now and change their story. They can’t say, _“Well, now that you’ve proven that my claims that I didn’t do it were a lie, I want to go back and admit I did it but pretend I never knew what I was doing was illegal.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/36 "2018-12-14T23:13:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Cohen, Manafort, and Trump have destroyed any chance they ever had of claiming this was just an inadvertent error. > > If a cop pulls you over and says _“You were speeding. This is a 30 mph zone.”_ And you respond by saying _“I’m sorry officer. I thought the speed limit here was 55.”_ then you can argue that you broke the law inadvertently. > > But if the cop pulls you over and says _“You were speeding. This is a 30 mph zone.”_ And you respond by saying _“What are you talking about officer? I was only driving 30 mph.”_ you’re no longer claiming an inadvertent violation. You’re now acknowledging that you were aware of what the speed limit was and are claiming you weren’t going faster than it. The fact that you are claiming you were in compliance with the law is an admission you were aware that the law existed. > > And that’s what Trump and his minions have been doing for the last two years. They’ve been claiming that they never broke the law even after they were informed about what the law says. > > They can’t go back now and change their story. They can’t say, _“Well, now that you’ve proven that my claims that I didn’t do it were a lie, I want to go back and admit I did it but pretend I never knew what I was doing was illegal.”_ I certainly don’t know one way or the other but what you are saying tends to make sense to me. It’s been Trump and Co.'s M.O. to deny, lie, lie, lie, argue it’s not illegal, admit it but swear it’s not wrong. Trump never even HEARD of Stormy Daniels, remember? He certainly never MET her, in spite of photographic evidence. OK OK he MET her, but only briefly. He doens’t KNOW her. He certainly never has gross sex with her. When it came out Cohen admitted to making the payments, all he could do was swear he never knew. Then on Fox and Friends, Trump himself said > [@](#): > > “There was no campaign funds going into this, which would have been a problem.” OOPS. Then immediately after that, because they can’t trip hard enough on themselves, Giuliani destroys that false narrative with another: Trump reimbursed Cohen the $130k and knew of a “general arrangement” between the porn star and his lawyer. Then, after swearing he never recorded Trump, Cohen’s recording of Trump comes out: > [@](#): > > “I need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend David,” Cohen says in the recording. AMI CEO David Pecker is friends with Trump. I don’t see how anyone could feign ignorance at this point. It’s been a part of how Trump handles every scandal-deny it until the truth comes out, then fight the truth with more lies. You can say he might not be guilty but he sure acts exactly how a guilty person would. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773/37 "2018-12-14T23:20:04Z")
Missed the edit window but: ETA: Forgot to mention all the Pecker/AMI stuff–he corroborates putting Trump in the room discussing the hush-money as an attempt to shield his campaign from the damaging publicity. “A high-level member of the Trump campaign” has been confirmed to be Trump himself by NBC news and Pecker attests to this fact and is working with Mueller. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-cohen-should-get-substaintial-prison-sentence-even-with-his-cooperation/825773.md?page=1)