# Michael Corleone Was a Psychopath **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 22, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173 "2014-08-22T05:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/41 "2014-08-23T03:50:47Z")
I don’t usually get a lot of people agreeing with me on this, but I think from the very first page of the book, Michael is destined to become the Godfather. There are several references to how similar he is to the Don. Mostly about keeping his feelings inside and controlling his anger like ice. He didn’t want that life but he realized it was his destiny. Whoever said it above about the coldness in which he married Kay; man I never thought about that, but that is so true. The book covers him seeing her when he’s back from Italy to getting married without any extra information; it was like something he did as a check mark on a list of things to do. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > And as I recall, Vito always saw Michael as the family’s route to respectability. Joining the Marines looked like rebellion to his brothers, but to Michael, it was one element of doing his part to serve his family. When circumstances changed, he served the Corleones in a different way. I don’t think Michael ever has a moral universe larger than his family, and I see the movie as gradually exposing the hollowness within him. And Michael himself knew that current way of being a Don was system that couldn’t sustain itself. He learned that while exiled to Italy and he saw how the mafia gave power and position to people who didn’t earn it; which ultimately corrupted the system. He wouldn’t let himself be operated on by the Dr. in Italy because he knew he had some ‘help’ getting his medical credentials. The was the real beginning of trying to make the Corleone family legitimate. Also, wasn’t it the Don himself who used to say something like " “The lawyer with the briefcase can steal more money than the man with the gun.” > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > One note…Michael seems determined to get his brother-in-law to admit his complicity in Sonny’s death. In the book, Tom is stunned that Mike is continuing this discourse. Tom felt that, innocent or not, once you determine a man is guilty, you don’t haggle over the details or question yourself. That’s a pretty telling moment too as it illustrates Michael will never be the man that his father was. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/42 "2014-08-23T06:10:40Z")
Next time you see it, notice the scene where Michael intercepts Kay as she’s taking her schoolchildren somewhere. As he tries to convince her, he lists reasons, with the \*final \*reason being “…and I love you.” This is after “I need you,” and “It’s important that we have children.” It always seems to me that he has to force out the “I love you.” He needs to marry \*someone \*and beget children, preferably boys. Kay is available and it’s easier to try to rekindle something than to start over with a new person. He also waited over a year after he returned. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/43 "2014-08-23T12:18:38Z")
This debate reminds me of the debate about whether Breaking Bad is the story of a good man becoming corrupted and evil, or a corrupted and evil man slowly dropping the good man act. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/44 "2014-08-23T13:46:57Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > This is an interesting point - when he first offers to kill those two guys in the restaurant, people laugh at him, and he angrily points out that he killed some Japanese soldiers in the war and these mobsters don’t have mortar support or tanks or anything. Sonny says he always figured that Michael had it in him all along. It’s been 40 years since I read the book, but I don’t remember this in the movie. I remember Sonny saying “Whadda you think – this is the Army, where you shoot 'em a mile away? You gotta get up close like this… badaBING! you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit”. I don’t think Micheal brought up his war service in that conversation, at least in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/45 "2014-08-23T15:16:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The whole concept of the series is psychopathic in a way, or at least elitist: Unlike in treatments like _Goodfellas_ or _The Sopranos,_ in the GF films we almost never see what the families are fighting over – turf to practice the sordid street crime that provides all their revenues, the protection rackets, rakeoffs, loansharking, prostitution, truck hijackings, scams and cons, etc. This is true. Hell, the whole reason an attempt was made to whack Vito was his “noble” refusal to engage in the drug trade citing that it was dirty business and the police and politicians he bribed would ignore prostitution or gambling but not drugs. I think it’s important not to lose sight of the fact that none of characters from the Godfather were good people. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/46 "2014-08-23T15:32:04Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > It’s been 40 years since I read the book, but I don’t remember this in the movie. I remember Sonny saying “Whadda you think – this is the Army, where you shoot 'em a mile away? You gotta get up close like this… badaBING! you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit”. I don’t think Micheal brought up his war service in that conversation, at least in the movie. It’s been a while since I’ve seen the movie and while I remember Sonny telling him it isn’t like the army I can’t remember whether or not Michael mentioned his service. But they did laugh at Michael because they all considered him to be a civilian. From their point of view it was absurd that someone who had never been involved in the family business would suddenly volunteered to murder a mobster and a chief of police at the same time. It’s pretty clear to me that Miachel isn’t a psychopath based on the evidence from the movie. He genuinely didn’t want to be involved in the family business but was driven to do so by his love and loyalty for them. I’m sure as hell not going to argue that he was a good man but he wasn’t a psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/47 "2014-08-23T15:37:58Z")
In the movie, Sonny laughs at the idea of Michael carrying out a hit in person. In the book, Sonny is pleased, and says something like, “I’ve been waiting to see this side of you. You were always the toughest one in the family. You were always the only one who could stand up to Pop. It’s good to see THAT Mike show himself again.” ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/48 "2014-08-23T15:54:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > In the movie, Sonny laughs at the idea of Michael carrying out a hit in person. In the book, Sonny is pleased, and says something like, “I’ve been waiting to see this side of you. You were always the toughest one in the family. You were always the only one who could stand up to Pop. It’s good to see THAT Mike show himself again.” That scene highlights Michael’s greatest and worst qualities wrapped up in one. He cuts the Gordian knot, but he lacks subtlety. He plays the Game of Thrones to win for sure… “Why can’t we shoot a cop? Huh?”, “Michael, c’mon…” And he knocks off all those guys at the end of the movie. But sometimes you have to learn to bend a little. (See Fredo). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/49 "2014-08-23T16:25:57Z")
If Michael is a psychopath or a sociopath from the beginning, then there’s no story to tell about him. I think it’s a mistake to label anyone who does something horrific as a psychopath or a sociopath. The great truth about good and evil is that _evil deeds are committed by good people_, or, at least, by people who think they are good, or people who think that they are _being_ good, or who think that except for this act, _for which I have good reason_, I am good. Sociopaths and psychopaths never have to go through any of that. There’s no moral or ethical dialogue in their consciences. There are obviously many psychopaths and sociopaths in the mob and in the _Godfather_, but if Michael is one of them, then the story is pointless. The point is that there is a man who thinks he is good, a man who thinks he wants to be good, a man who thinks he is doing good things, being faced by a series of choices, and in each case, he has a reason to choose the option that takes him farther and farther away from being good. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/50 "2014-08-24T11:18:10Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > It’s been 40 years since I read the book, but I don’t remember this in the movie. I remember Sonny saying “Whadda you think – this is the Army, where you shoot 'em a mile away? You gotta get up close like this… badaBING! you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit”. I don’t think Micheal brought up his war service in that conversation, at least in the movie. Of course it wasn’t like in the Army, Michael enlists in the [Marine Corps](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Corleone#The_Godfather), and fights in the Pacific War. During the war, Michael receives a battlefield commission to the rank of Captain and is awarded the Navy Cross for bravery. **dba fred** , son of a Marine I picture Tom Hagen as a Naval JAG Officer, Sonny to the Army, and Fredo handing out donuts with the Red Cross. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/51 "2014-08-24T16:06:48Z")
The notion that Michael Corleone was a psychopath is utterly absurd. The labels “sociopath” and “psychopath” are being slapped like bumper stickers on every bit of violent, controlling or manipulative behavior you can find these days. People are very malleable and respond to the social and behavioral contexts surrounding them. That you would have Michael become the hard, calculated, ruthless person he became in fulfilling his duties as the had of a mob family is entirely predictable and (in context) he did his job very well with the resources he had at his commend. People mold themselves to their expected and required roles. Michael may never have been the warm and fuzzy type but to deduce that he has some sort of psychological aberration because he killed, controlled, and manipulated people in the context of his duties as the head boss of crime family is kind of silly. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/52 "2014-08-24T20:01:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The whole concept of the series is psychopathic in a way, or at least elitist: Unlike in treatments like _Goodfellas_ or _The Sopranos,_ in the GF films we almost never see what the families are fighting over – turf to practice the sordid street crime that provides all their revenues, the protection rackets, rakeoffs, loansharking, prostitution, truck hijackings, scams and cons, etc. We see some of that in the flashback sequences of GFII, with young Vito and his crew, but when he becomes a don it’s like that stuff doesn’t exist anymore and We Do Not Talk About the Sources of the Family Income (not even in family war-councils, AFAICR). We see Michael’s Nevada whorehouse only because the plot requires it. All the conflict is like conflict between medieval lords or Renaissance princes, common folk simply do not play a part in it except as required and are not much thought of by the princes – they’re there, tilling the fields and paying their feudal dues, and that’s that. Nice observation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/53 "2014-08-24T20:51:13Z")
Of course, historical medieval lords and knights are subject to similar whitewashing in the popular imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/54 "2014-08-25T13:48:03Z")
I watched The Godfather not long ago. Only seen I, not II or III. > [@Princhester](#): > > He starts out the movie far too principled and his descent into a monster is too sudden and unexplained. I don’t think it was sudden or unexplained. It starts with the attempt on his father, but even then, he doesn’t want to be directly involved in the family affairs. It is only after he goes to the hospital and finds the police corruption, and gets beat by the cop, that he becomes involved. He sees the corruption of the police and realizes that the only way to make his father safe is to strike directly at the threat, he can’t rely on law and order, so he’s left with the old ways. Once he decides that, it is his personality that brings the solution. Sonny is impulsive, but Michael is a cold, rational, determined man. He’s got his father’s steel core. So he realizes he has the best chance to succeed, because he is least suspect by his enemies. He has the ability to strategize, and the determination to carry out what he decides to do. But even then, that is not everything, he goes off to Italy to hide out. There, he falls for a lady, so he courts her and marries her. And he’s prepared to continue, but then finds that he’s still not safe, and loses his wife in an attempt on his life. That burns him again, and ultimately brings him home. How long was he gone? A year? Two years? And then it’s another year or more before he goes to Kay. It’s the course of events that drives him to become the head of the family. Even then, he wants to take the family legit, get them out of the life. But he knows he can’t just quit, so it will take a determined plan to get there, and part of that plan involved eliminating the enemies of the family. So he has to make ruthless choices for his intended goal. > [@](#): > > It’s a while since I saw the first movie but his story to his girlfriend was intended more to illustrate his contempt for his psycho father rather than to be “amusing” wasn’t it? Or am I misremembering? He’s trying to explain to Kay why he keeps her distant from the family and doesn’t want to be involved, how it isn’t all the glamour of knowing Johnny Fontaine the singer, there is the dirty side. > [@SaharaTea](#): > > I think Michael’s hint at his importance had more to do with smoothing things over after his bodyguards offended the girl’s father. Michael was establishing trust by letting him in on the fact that Michael was a wanted man and others would pay for information on his whereabouts. Telling the man that he was wanted was a way of apology and giving respect by giving the man power over him. “Now you know something that can hurt me.” > [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think he was a psychopath and I don’t think he became a “monster” exactly. In his own mind, at least, he remains a ‘good man’: he does not take pleasure in harming others but ‘does what is necessary for the good of the family’. > > The Godfather is a tragedy, and the nature of that tragedy is that Michael, for what seemed very good and reasonable reasons at the time, embarks on a series of rationalizations that lead him into becomming exactly what he was trying to escape: he gained his world and lost his soul. Yes, I agree. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t see it. Michael falls in love with the girl at first sight; he courts her in a decorous, respectable and traditional fashion, with chaperones; the father probably already knows who he is, and nothing Michael says or does or hints can be read as a threat – his father’s status is, if anything relevant, rather an inducement, to make Michael an attractive catch, like if he were the son of the owner of a steel mill or something. No, the man at that time doesn’t know who Michael is - he thinks the reason they have guns is they were out hunting, rather than carrying them to defend Michael, who wanted to hike and explore. Telling the father about being a wanted man was an act of contrition for the insult the man felt at the way his men talked about the woman that was the daughter. He was showing the man respect - “here is power over me”. He wasn’t saying “I’m someone important”, though that might be deduced by the interactions of the men toward him. > [@](#): > > The only thing possibly dodgy about it is that it is not clear, AFAICR, that Michael is broken-up with Kay at this point. Eh, Michael left America in a hurry. He was in a steady and serious relationship with Kay, but it was on hold. Then he saw the woman, and it was his impetuous side. But unlike Sonny, Michael was a calculating and determined man. He controlled his emotions, not the other way around. So he had a goal - that woman. But she wanted him, too, so it wasn’t a forced thing, it was a mutual attraction. So yes, technically, he hadn’t broken up with Kay, but practically, he was far more emotionally moved by this woman than Kay. If he had been in contact with Kay, then he would have told her as much. > [@MovieMogul](#): > > Michael has no innocence to lose. His claims to want to make the business legitimate in 1 & 2 are simply falsehoods. I disagree. He wants legitimacy, but it’s not a simple path to get it. He’s calculating enough to see the challenges, and he’s willing to use the brutal techniques to seek his goal, because of the dangers to the family until he gets them in the clear. > [@](#): > > He is stepping into his father’s shoes, but hardly against either his will or his nature. Just because he’s the best suited of the brothers by temperament doesn’t mean he wants the job or seeks it out. He ultimately finds himself in the role through necessity, and strives to use the power to further his agenda to secure the family. > [@Bill\_Door](#): > > It’s been 40 years since I read the book, but I don’t remember this in the movie. I remember Sonny saying “Whadda you think – this is the Army, where you shoot 'em a mile away? You gotta get up close like this… badaBING! you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit”. I don’t think Micheal brought up his war service in that conversation, at least in the movie. Correct, in the movie, Sonny makes vague reference to Michael’s service. Michael doesn’t bring it up, he just proposes the killing and being the one they would least suspect so the one most likely to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/55 "2014-08-25T14:50:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If Michael is a psychopath or a sociopath from the beginning, then there’s no story to tell about him. This is true. But the point of the story is the punchline - > [@Michael Corleone](#): > > That’s my family, Kay. That’s not me. And the movie is a tragedy because the punchline isn’t true. It’s his family, and it’s him. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/56 "2014-08-25T15:04:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is true. > > But the point of the story is the punchline - And the movie is a tragedy because the punchline isn’t true. It’s his family, and it’s him. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s his family, and it becomes him. The story is about that process. If it was already him, there is no dramatic arc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/57 "2014-08-25T15:17:42Z")
It may be a distinction without a difference, but Kay (and the audience) don’t know it’s him. The dramatic arc is the revelation to Kay and to the audience, and to him. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/58 "2014-08-25T15:26:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It may be a distinction without a difference, but Kay (and the audience) don’t know it’s him. The dramatic arc is the revelation to Kay and to the audience, and to him. > > Regards, > Shodan That depends on whether the point of the movie is that it was a destiny that was inevitable (and that was simply revealed over time), or whether it was the outcome of a series of choices he made. My bet is on the latter - for example, he’s shown making the affirmative choice to take out some enemies because of the threat to his father and the revelation that the cops (that is, “regular society”) will not protect his family. If his father had been killed, or if he’d never personally seen the corruption of the cops, chances are he’d never have taken a leadership role that set him on the path to becomming just like dad. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/59 "2014-08-25T20:29:29Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > This is true. Hell, the whole reason an attempt was made to whack Vito was his “noble” refusal to engage in the drug trade citing that it was dirty business and the police and politicians he bribed would ignore prostitution or gambling but not drugs. I think it’s important not to lose sight of the fact that none of characters from the Godfather were good people. I thought it was because Sonny foolishly showed that he’d be interested in the drug trade (and got reprimanded for it) after Don Corleone refused. The belief was with Vito out of the way, the other Dons could convince Sonny the best play was to get into the drug trade. That may be splitting hairs, but I was under the assumption that if Sonny hadn’t make that mistake they wouldn’t have tried to kill the Don. After all they still needed the politicians that were in the Corelones’ pocket. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173/60 "2014-08-25T20:56:35Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > I thought it was because Sonny foolishly showed that he’d be interested in the drug trade (and got reprimanded for it) after Don Corleone refused. The belief was with Vito out of the way, the other Dons could convince Sonny the best play was to get into the drug trade. That may be splitting hairs, but I was under the assumption that if Sonny hadn’t make that mistake they wouldn’t have tried to kill the Don. After all they still needed the politicians that were in the Corelones’ pocket. Sonny’s mistake was letting them know that they would be better off dealing with Sonny than Vito. Vito should have tripled his guard because he knew exactly what Sonny’s mistake was and was certainly smart enough to figure out the consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-corleone-was-a-psychopath/696173.md?page=4)