# Michael Gove, UK Education Secretary and raving ideologue, removes American classics from curriculum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279 "2014-05-26T13:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/41 "2014-05-27T16:31:16Z")
English kids spend pretty much their whole lives learning English things. In 8 years of primary and secondary education (at top private schools, I might add) our only exposure to non-British history was a year or so on Greece and Rome and a few weeks on the New Deal. Any other foreign history we covered was only as context for British history - i.e., learning about Vikings while we learned about the Viking conquest of northern England. ---
**Author:** ![Echo\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Echo\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Echo_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/42 "2014-05-27T16:34:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Does this guy have some personal animus against American literature or is this simply a case of British kids being taught British things? I’m asking, I really don’t know enough about the situation to determine it either way. It is neither. First, the books are not banned. Second, Michael Gove is widely-known as a pro-American Atlanticist. [These](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/10857133/Michael-Gove-Kill-a-Mockingbird-Id-never-dream-of-it.html) are his words. Going back to the 90s, Gove was an advisor to a (misguided and poorly-run, IMHO) Thatcherite organisation set-up to promote good relations between the UK and the United States. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/43 "2014-05-29T08:39:49Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Does this guy have some personal animus against American literature or is this simply a case of British kids being taught British things? I’m asking, I really don’t know enough about the situation to determine it either way. > > On one hand, these are classic books. But on the other hand, they are classics to the US because it deals with our history. Someone growing up in England will not have the same history to deal with. What’s wrong with teaching English kids English things? It’s not anti-American at all, but pro-British. Gove has introduced changes to other parts of the curriculum to make them more British, like making history almost all about British history up to GCSE level (currently GCSE history focuses on world history) and making geography focus on the British Isles. I think that’s what’s getting people’s backs up so much, really - that this is not an isolated case, it’s part of his ideology. It’s also the way he’s doing it; teachers really don’t have much time to prepare for these changes because the new GCSEs start from September and the changes are coming in now (the last kids to take the old GCSEs will be in 2016; they will be the resits). Schools are going to have to throw away all their prior resources, make new ones and buy lots of new books, at a time when budgets are being cut. Exam boards and educational publishers will have a lot of work to do to catch up. Kids aren’t going to be able to use revision resources from even a year ago. Exam practice will be difficult since the exams will be different. If we’re supposed to be tightening our belts and not spending where we don’t have to, this runs counter to that. OCR have released details of what texts they will be requiring, and some of the texts are pretty good, so I’m happy with the texts themselves and not actually as annoyed as some people I know. I can see why they are, though. I do wish people who don’t know the British system would stop saying these books haven’t been banned. Given the limited amount of teaching time, and the importance of the GCSE, teachers really do only get to teach the prescribed texts at GCSE level. And kids have lots of exposure to British works pre-GCSE. Animal Farm, one of the books on the OCR list, is quite popular at Key Stage Three (ages 11-14). Of Mice and Men and To Kill a Mockingbird won’t be, except maybe in some higher sets, because they are too difficult for most kids in that age group. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/44 "2014-05-29T08:51:48Z")
Well to be fair, I’ve always wondered why certain books are considered “classics” anyways and why can’t they update book lists? Considering “Tom Sawyer” was written in 1876 and was a good book back in its time. But if Tom Sawyer came out today and was compared to other modern novels would it still be considered as great? For that matter is Shakespeare really that great compared to modern day poets and writers? Macbeth was written in 1611. Is it better than modern day plays? Just because something is old and was great in its day shouldnt be enough to keep it on a required reading list. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/45 "2014-05-29T13:51:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Although I do kind of like the idea of resolving the controversy with high-level diplomatic negotiations. “At the current exchange rate, one Mark Twain assignment shall be equal to two Jane Austens.” There is no fair trade for even a single Jane Austen assignment. Ok, maybe Melville. (I may have just angered a whole bunch of my fellow Americans) ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/46 "2014-05-29T14:00:47Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Does this guy have some personal animus against American literature or is this simply a case of British kids being taught British things? I’m asking, I really don’t know enough about the situation to determine it either way. > > On one hand, these are classic books. But on the other hand, they are classics to the US because it deals with our history. Someone growing up in England will not have the same history to deal with. What’s wrong with teaching English kids English things? It’s valuable to get a sense of other countries’ histories and culture, and literature is a good way to do that. We had to read a lot of British literature in American schools, why not the other way around? I for one would never suggest that American schoolkids shouldn’t read Jane Eyre or Pride and Prejudice or 1984 just because they’re not part of our history. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/47 "2014-05-29T14:17:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well to be fair, I’ve always wondered why certain books are considered “classics” anyways and why can’t they update book lists? They do. You think Toni Morrison made it onto modern classic book lists on a fluke? That “Catcher in the Rye” was added to school book lists the year it was published? Book lists are constantly examined and updated. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Considering “Tom Sawyer” was written in 1876 and was a good book back in its time. But if Tom Sawyer came out today and was compared to other modern novels would it still be considered as great? Probably. Twain was a damned good writer. Better than 90+% of the guys we have today. That said, we study “Huckleberry Finn” and “Tom Sawyer” but we don’t have school children reading “Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court” or “Pudd’nhead Wilson” or “Joan of Arc”. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > For that matter is Shakespeare really that great compared to modern day poets and writers? Macbeth was written in 1611. Is it better than modern day plays? His best is much better then the vast majority of what we have today, yes. But that’s an unfair comparison. His worst is pretty bad. But we don’t study his worst plays, either. That’s kind of why we still study him. Or Twain. Or Dickens. Or any of the classics. It’s cherry picking (in a good way). We have taken the absolute best stuff to come out over the last several centuries. Yes, that stuff will still be good compared to most of what comes out today. I’m actually quite offended by this post. It advocates change for its own sake and demonstrates little awareness or introspection. That the new is inherently better because it “must” necessarily have grown from the old. A couple seconds worth of thought should have made the answers apparent, so it’s more than a little disturbing that it did not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/48 "2014-05-29T14:18:49Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > GCSEs don’t last for more than two years in any subject. Where are you getting that from? Wikipedia’s entry on GCSE: > [@](#): > > Typically though, study of chosen subjects begins at the start of Year 10 (age 14-15), although some subjects start earlier, for example Maths, English and Science, mainly because these courses are too long to be taught within the traditional 2 years; final examinations are then taken at the end of Year 11 (age 15-16). ---
**Author:** ![Charley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Charley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charley)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/49 "2014-05-29T23:42:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wikipedia’s entry on GCSE: That just means that those core subjects are also studied before the GCSE courses begin. You couldn’t learn all the maths you’d need from a standing start in 2 years. The specifically-GSCE study still only takes 2 years. By contrast, taking a geography GSCE, for example, would mean you’d be examined only on the curriculum you’d followed over the GCSE course - the 2 years preceding the final submission. Only work you do within that course will be submitted and if there’s a final exam it’s based on the 2 year course. Theoretically, although most schools tend to offer broader curricula anyway, you may never have done any geography in school until you opt for it in your GCSEs. That’s certainly likely for subjects such as Psychology and some languages, where they are offered. At my school (donkey’s years ago) you could choose Russian or Spanish as a newly-introduced language at GCSE, without their being offered previously. It’s an important part of the English/Welsh school system (and to some extent the other countries of the UK are the same). At some point towards the end of your 3rd year at senior school (aged 13-14) you select the subjects you are going to study for the next 2 years. In relation to the OP: I agree that Gove’s a total ideologue. This may not be the most egregious example, but it is the latest in a long parade of depressing news. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/50 "2014-05-30T00:15:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > English kids spend pretty much their whole lives learning English things. In 8 years of primary and secondary education (at top private schools, I might add) our only exposure to non-British history was a year or so on Greece and Rome and a few weeks on the New Deal. Any other foreign history we covered was only as context for British history - i.e., learning about Vikings while we learned about the Viking conquest of northern England. At what age did you leave the UK? In my latter years of school I studied the French Revolution, Napoleon, Germany 1933-39, the Cold War (which obviously focused on the two superpowers), American civil rights history and the American Civil War (although that was “free choice” study). My time studying the First World War naturally focused on the British side of things but there was also a reasonably global perspective. Even my time studying Tudor economics gave me a lot of insights into what the rest of Europe was doing at the time, and studying the British Empire, of course, covered important moments in other countries’ histories. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/51 "2014-05-30T01:14:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d be curious to see what the entire list looks like. Both before and after. > Since we’re in the pit, I’d like to say that I’m not too keen on Charles Dickens. I have hated Dickens since I was forced to read _Great Expectations_ in high school. _To Kill a Mockingbird_ is one of the top five novels I’ve ever read. It was forced on me in high school, like the Dickens, but the difference is that I loved it, and never wanted to let my teacher know. I’ll never be without a copy at home. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/52 "2014-05-30T01:39:00Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I have hated Dickens since I was forced to read _Great Expectations_ in high school. > > _To Kill a Mockingbird_ is one of the top five novels I’ve ever read. It was forced on me in high school, like the Dickens, but the difference is that I loved it, and never wanted to let my teacher know. I’ll never be without a copy at home. I didn’t get to study it at school, or Lord of the Flies - the other two English classes in my year got one each. It’s a shame, because I love both novels and they both present a lot of opportunities for discussion that even a GCSE me might have appreciated. Lord of the Flies has one of my favourite pieces of imagery in it. I’m re-reading To Kill a Mockingbird at the moment, and will probably start a thread soon with a few questions, if they’re threadworthy (and if no one else does it first). I’m sure your thoughts would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/53 "2014-05-30T06:36:25Z")
I know that books are routinely dropped from reading lists. It’s not like one book has to be required reading forever. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/54 "2014-05-30T13:51:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wikipedia’s entry on GCSE: That’s not quite right. Very occasionally (and I mean really extremely rarely) a school will do a bit of GCSE prep work in the last half term of year 9. Obviously some kids in higher sets will start some GCSEs earlier, but they’ll also finish earlier - they don’t get more time. With the new system, that is all based on terminal exams with no modular exams and no coursework, I suspect the early start will happen even less because it’d be a bit much to expect 16-year-olds to remember details about a text they studied three years earlier. Just so you know, there are also prescribed texts for key stage three (age 11-14, the three years before GCSE). There is more variety there, but it’s still not a free choice. And obviously it depends on what books your school has in. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/55 "2014-05-31T10:09:49Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I do wish people who don’t know the British system would stop saying these books haven’t been banned. Given the limited amount of teaching time Ok, so there is only enough teaching time for 4 items. That suggests that, if M&M and GOW were the reading list before, there was only space for 2 other items? What were they? Also, which of the 4 “requirements” listed would you drop to make space for M&M and GOW? I suspect that there was room for more than 4 items, but since I don’t know the British system, I actually don’t know. If there is only space for 4 items, then I guess I’m with the Education minister: it’s probably time to drop GOW. And maybe you could sneak M&M in as part of the Romantic Poets requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/56 "2014-05-31T11:49:38Z")
I’m not sure The Grapes of Wrath is involved in this story, other than also being by Steinbeck. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/57 "2014-05-31T15:40:35Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Ok, so there is only enough teaching time for 4 items. That suggests that, if M&M and GOW were the reading list before, there was only space for 2 other items? What were they? > > Also, which of the 4 “requirements” listed would you drop to make space for M&M and GOW? > > I suspect that there was room for more than 4 items, but since I don’t know the British system, I actually don’t know. If there is only space for 4 items, then I guess I’m with the Education minister: it’s probably time to drop GOW. And maybe you could sneak M&M in as part of the Romantic Poets requirement. 4 novels, yes, because of the other requirements. Of Mice and Men as Romantic Poetry? Huh? I genuinely don’t get what you mean by that. It’s about a hundred years later and isn’t poetry. You could try and pretend it was Romantic Poetry if you wanted, I guess. It wouldn’t be in the exam, so your students would fail, but if you want to do that it’s up to you. You could spend the entire two years teaching whatever you like, but most teachers want their kids to pass their exams. Teachers do not set the exams themselves; they are set by one of two exam boards who have extremely similar criteria. These texts are the ones that will be in the exams. That’s what this whole change is about. I’m pretty sure I’ve answered your other questions. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/58 "2014-06-01T11:38:31Z")
I should point out that the kids will also spend those two years studying for another 10 or so GCSEs in other subjects, all of which, from next year, will be examination only and all at the end of those two years. They do have quite a full schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/59 "2014-06-01T18:48:03Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > At what age did you leave the UK? In my latter years of school I studied the French Revolution, Napoleon, Germany 1933-39, the Cold War (which obviously focused on the two superpowers), American civil rights history and the American Civil War (although that was “free choice” study). My time studying the First World War naturally focused on the British side of things but there was also a reasonably global perspective. Even my time studying Tudor economics gave me a lot of insights into what the rest of Europe was doing at the time, and studying the British Empire, of course, covered important moments in other countries’ histories. 13, immediately after finishing Year 9 (first year of secondary school.) So admittedly I didn’t do any of the GCSE or A-level stuff. > [@Melbourne](#): > > Ok, so there is only enough teaching time for 4 items. That suggests that, if M&M and GOW were the reading list before, there was only space for 2 other items? What were they? > > Also, which of the 4 “requirements” listed would you drop to make space for M&M and GOW? There isn’t a reading list, or at least not one promulgated by the government. You don’t have to drop anything; just get rid of the “from the British Isles” part in the last requirement: > [@](#): > >  at least one play by Shakespeare >  at least one 19th century novel >  a selection of poetry since 1789, including representative Romantic poetry >  fiction or drama from the British Isles from 1914 onwards. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279/60 "2014-06-01T22:47:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There isn’t a reading list, or at least not one promulgated by the government. You don’t have to drop anything; just get rid of the “from the British Isles” part in the last requirement: The reading list is set by the exam boards with guidance from the govt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-gove-uk-education-secretary-and-raving-ideologue-removes-american-classics-from-curriculum/689279.md?page=2)