# Michael Jackson the Pederast? What Do We Actually know?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [July 6, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108 "2009-07-06T18:25:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/1 "2009-07-06T18:25:40Z")
Ther are a lot of people who will throw out the term pedophile linked to Michael Jackson’s name as if it was a foregone conclusion. However, he clearly was never convicted of such a thing, but he did pay some people off. So I amjust wondering how much of the perception is based on facts and how much of it is based on the repeated meme.
I kno, for example that Michael liked to say he shared a bed with these kids. That is improper but doesn’t rise necessarily to the level of pedophilia. Sharing wine with kids, was that alleged or admitted to. While I have no idea about what really happened, of course, I think it was clear that MJ didn’t have a clear understanding of the proper relationship between kids and adults, but I am not not necessarily convinced that extended to sexual acts. Of course, I am not convinced it doesn’t either.
If the Mod feels like moving this to something like Great Debates I would completely understand.
---
### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/2 "2009-07-06T18:31:43Z")
He was acquitted, but a creepy vibe hung around him to the end of his days IMHO. He was interviewed after his acquittal and said he _still_ saw nothing wrong with sleeping with children who weren’t his. His fans will excuse, explain or handwave as they wish, but I wouldn’t have left my kids alone with him, and I doubt they would either.
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/3 "2009-07-06T18:38:35Z")
What we know for certain you have pretty well covered. He was accused, twice, and paid off both. Therefore we are left with speculation.
IMO, he appeared to be, emotionally, about eight years old. Witness building your own theme park, and keeping a chimpanzee as your best friend. Sex play is by no means uncommon during that age, and I would bet that Jacko got the urge towards young boys because he felt the way they do at that age.
FWIW, I doubt it ever went beyond mutual masturbation, but that’s sexual molestation, legally and morally. I doubt he ever had anything like a mature sexual relationship with anyone.
OK, maybe the chimp. But only when one of them was drunk.
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/4 "2009-07-06T18:43:46Z")
The Maureen Orth Vanity Fair articles looked pretty damning. They painted him as someone who was less in a state of arrested development and more ruthless/cunning than we’d been led to believe. For someone who proclaimed his innocence so loudly, he sure surrounded himself with some very scary people.
---
### Author:  [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/5 "2009-07-06T18:48:57Z")
Sorry if this doesn’t answer the OP, but the Martin Bashir documentary re-aired recently and one scene really stood out for me. Jackson’s being interviewed about the whole balcony baby debacle and MJ asks, several times, ‘Why would I want to throw a baby over a balcony?’ As if that’s what people were appalled by, his malice rather than his complete, dangerous cluelessness. He _does not get it_.
> [@](#):
>
> While I have no idea about what really happened, of course, I think it was clear that MJ didn’t have a clear understanding of the proper relationship between kids and adults, but I am not not necessarily convinced that extended to sexual acts.
Isn’t this a common sentiment from actual ped\*s, though? That children are pure and innocent and they understand them, deep down, more than any tainted adult? Perhaps someone who knows more about this subject can weigh in.
---
### Author:  [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/6 "2009-07-06T18:49:24Z")
I find it funny how so many people jump up to Michael Jackson’s defense saying he was never convicted yet OJ Simpson, who was also never convicted, is universally thought of as a murdered.
---
### Author:  [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/7 "2009-07-06T19:03:41Z")
His actions did not show him to be the innocent, naive boy-man that some made him out to be.
He showed many of the M.O.s of a classic pedophile, but was seemingly careful enough to choose targets who would make less than convincing accusers in a courtroom…
---
### Author:  [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/8 "2009-07-06T19:05:24Z")
> [@Amp](#):
>
> I find it funny how so many people jump up to Michael Jackson’s defense saying he was never convicted yet OJ Simpson, who was also never convicted, is universally thought of as a murdered.
I wholeheartedly agree that O.J. was never murdered.
---
### Author:  [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/9 "2009-07-06T19:08:22Z")
:smack: Damnit!
Murderer, I meant OJ is thought of as a murderer.
---
### Author:  [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/10 "2009-07-06T19:09:17Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> The Maureen Orth Vanity Fair articles looked pretty damning. They painted him as someone who was less in a state of arrested development and more ruthless/cunning than we’d been led to believe. For someone who proclaimed his innocence so loudly, he sure surrounded himself with some very scary people.
I was curious, so I searched for these - [a link for anyone else who wanted to read them](http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2009/06/michael-jackson-is-gone-but-the-sad-facts-remain.html).
---
### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/11 "2009-07-06T19:10:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> He was acquitted, but a creepy vibe hung around him to the end of his days IMHO. He was interviewed after his acquittal and said he _still_ saw nothing wrong with sleeping with children who weren’t his. His fans will excuse, explain or handwave as they wish, but I wouldn’t have left my kids alone with him, and I doubt they would either.
I think Macauley Culkin of all people has a pretty good handle on what Jackson meant when he said children slept in his bed with him…
**MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR:** _You know, they’ve always slept in the same bedroom with him. I don’t think you understand, Michael Jackson’s bedroom is two stories. And it has like three bathrooms and this and that. So, when I slept in his bedroom, yeah, but you have to understand the whole scenario._
ETA: From a Larry King Live transcript. [CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/01/lkl.01.html)
---
### Author:  [@SaharaTea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaharaTea)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/12 "2009-07-06T19:11:14Z")
> [@Amp](#):
>
> I find it funny how so many people jump up to Michael Jackson’s defense saying he was never convicted yet OJ Simpson, who was also never convicted, is universally thought of as a murdered.
I don’t think they are the same. IMO there is such a preponderance of evidence in the OJ Simpson case (including _his own book_) that it’s pretty damn obvious he’s guilty. I don’t have the same level of certainty with MJ. It’s clear he behaved inappropriately with children. I have a hunch he probably went further, but a hunch is not the same as a certainty. I’m not certain and I don’t know if I ever will be.
---
### Author:  [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/13 "2009-07-06T19:18:35Z")
I’d say that Culkin has a vested interest in saying just that. The Vanity Fare articles are terribly damaging.
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/14 "2009-07-06T19:22:03Z")
Also, why even share the bedroom? He has spare rooms. He has spare _houses_ in Neverland. All right, maybe it was a “sleepover” type thing but if I knew an adult male who told me he liked spending the night with children, but it wasn’t sexual, I’d still worry. And I’d tell any of my friends with kids to stay away from him and not let him alone with them because at the very least, this person is completely socially unbalanced. You don’t admit to wanting to sleep with children.
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/15 "2009-07-06T19:22:04Z")
We do not know for sure. Two payoffs, 2 trials and many rumors are still circumstantial. But some feel that people were after his money with false accusations. If so, then he was rash and stupid. He should have learned faster.
It is just that after awhile ,your defense of him gets worn down. His interview about sleeping with kids an just a natural thing, added more fuel. He was stupid and naive. But i do not know for sure he was a molester. I suspect he may have been.
---
### Author:  [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/16 "2009-07-06T19:26:30Z")
I was under the impression that Vanity Fair **heavily** embellishes their “exposes” on celebrities. How credible are they?
---
### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/17 "2009-07-06T19:35:00Z")
I believe Culkin when he says MJ never acted inappropriately with him. I also think it’s a non-indicator. When they first started hanging out, Culkin was just as hugely famous as MJ, and with just as much clout in the industry and credibility with the public. Maybe more. If MJ had tried anything MC didn’t like, it would have been Armageddon. And forget paying him off or intimidating his family. So even if what MC says is true, and it most likely is, it could just be a smoke screen.
---
### Author:  [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/18 "2009-07-06T19:45:23Z")
> [@Lochdale](#):
>
> The Vanity Fare articles are terribly damaging.
And it’s quite interesting that Jackson’s lawyers never tried libel or defamation suit. Tom Cruise has successfully bitch-slapped publications for far less.
Related to the VF main page article: Seriously? He was on the witness stand and claimed not to recognize someone who was his publicist for ten years?
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/19 "2009-07-06T19:46:15Z")
> [@Amp](#):
>
> I find it funny how so many people jump up to Michael Jackson’s defense saying he was never convicted yet OJ Simpson, who was also never convicted, is universally thought of as a murdered.
In both cases, it’s probably because we read the court transcripts and considered the evidence that was presented.
> [@MPB in Salt Lake](#):
>
> He showed many of the M.O.s of a classic pedophile, but was seemingly careful enough to choose targets who would make less than convincing accusers in a courtroom.
Yes, it was positively Machiavellian of him, the way he only abused children who would, in retrospect, appear to have been coached by mercenary scammers.
Also, very clever of him to have the foresight to keep so many those “decoy” children around, to give credible support for his claim of non-erotic (if plain weird) friendships.
“Ah-_ha!_ At some point in the future, it will become clear that this woman used her children as a ready-made shoplifting ring, and fabricated an apparently groundless sexual abuse claim against a major department store in order to score a significant cash settlement. I’ll bet her husband will even testify that she coaches the kids to say whatever needs to be said for her own purposes. I’ll bet I can get away with having a good ol’ wank session with _this_ boy, so long as I’m very careful never to succumb to temptation with any of those other kids, and make damn sure that there’s no incriminatiing evidence that might be turned up by an exhaustive search.”
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/20 "2009-07-06T19:47:14Z")
[Some typical characteristics of pedophiles](http://www.mental-health-matters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=519):
> [@](#):
>
> - Popular with both children and adults.
> - Appears to be trustworthy and respectable. Has good standing in the community.
> - Prefers the company of children. Feels more comfortable with children than adults. Is mainly attracted to prepubescent boys and girls. Can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.
> - “Grooms” children with quality time, video games, parties, candy, toys, gifts, money.
> - Singles out children who seem troubled and in need of attention or affection.
> - Often dates or marries women with children that are the age of his preferred victims.
> - Rarely forces or coerces a child into sexual contact. Usually through trust and friendship. Physical contact is gradual, from touching, to picking up, to holding on lap, to kissing, etc.
> - Derives gratification in a number of ways. For some, looking is enough. For others, taking pictures or watching children undress is enough. Still others require more contact.
> - Finds different ways and places to be alone with children.
> - Are primarily (but not always) male, masculine, better-educated, more religious than average, in their thirties, and choose jobs allowing them greater access to children.
> - Are usually family men, have no criminal record, and deny that they abuse children, even after caught, convicted, incarcerated, and court-ordered into a sex offender program. The marriage is often troubled by sexual dysfunction, and serves as a smokescreen for the pedophile’s true preferences and practices.
> - Are often, but not always, themselves victims of some form of childhood sexual abuse.
> - Even if the pedophile has no children, his home is usually child-friendly, with toys, books, video games, computers, bikes, swing sets, skateboards, rec room, pool, snacks - things to attract children to his home and keep them coming back. Usually the items reflect the preferred age of his victims.
> - A female pedophile usually abuses a child when partnered with an adult male pedophile, and is often herself a victim of chronic sexual abuse.
> - A pedophile can act independently, or be involved in an organized ring, including the Internet, NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association), and other pro-pedophilia groups. Some pedophiles recognize that their behavior is criminal, immoral, and unacceptable by society, and operate in secrecy. Some are quite open and militant about their practices and advocate the normalization of pedophilia under the guise of freedom of speech and press, and uses innocuous language like “intergenerational intimacy.”
Another characteristic I’ve often seen in these kids of profiles is the idealization of children as “innocent,” “pure,” etc.
I think MJ exhibited 8 or 9 of these characteristics and possibly more.
And I still maintain that you don’t pay 22 million clams to someone accusing you of child molestation if you didn’t do it.
If it moonwalks like a duck…
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108.md?page=2)