# Michael Jackson the Pederast? What Do We Actually know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 6, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108 "2009-07-06T18:25:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/21 "2009-07-06T20:01:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > In both cases, it’s probably because we read the court transcripts and considered the evidence that was presented.Yes, it was positively Machiavellian of him, the way he only abused children who would, in retrospect, appear to have been coached by mercenary scammers. > > Also, very clever of him to have the foresight to keep so many those “decoy” children around, to give credible support for his claim of non-erotic (if plain weird) friendships. You don’t think it’s odd that he sought out the friendship of a boy with cancer and whose family had a history of suing unsuccessfully? Actually, I think it’s odd that he would seek out the friendship of young boys to begin with. Why only young boys? And why only boys between a certain age (about 10-13) who he tended to drop when they got older. It’s classic pedophile behavior, much as **Dio** has posted on above. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/22 "2009-07-06T20:10:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Some typical characteristics of pedophiles](http://www.mental-health-matters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=519): > > I think MJ exhibited 8 or 9 of these characteristics and possibly more. But 5 of those characteristics would apply to your average nerd and you can get up to 8 if you have a kid-friendly job. Labeling everyone that has a few of those characteristics as a likely pedophile would paint a lot of people with that brush. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/23 "2009-07-06T20:18:07Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You don’t think it’s odd that he sought out the friendship of a boy with cancer and whose family had a history of suing unsuccessfully? Actually, I think it’s odd that he would seek out the friendship of young boys to begin with. Why only young boys? And why only boys between a certain age (about 10-13) who he tended to drop when they got older. It’s classic pedophile behavior, much as **Dio** has posted on above. Nobody’s saying that the guy wasn’t broken. But I don’t think the case has been made that he sucked on little boy’s dicks. I saw him as a stunted, pathetic man, mentally trapped in a miserable childhood. It might be that he wanted surrogates of him at that age, that he wanted to improve the lives of children like he saw himself. Broken and child-like doesn’t mean he was a predator, it means he was a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/24 "2009-07-06T20:23:10Z")
Being accused twice and having a rather lenghty and serious criminal prosecution against him suggests that it was more than him being a little confused. Put it this way, would you let a 10 year old boy near him? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/25 "2009-07-06T20:31:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Nobody’s saying that the guy wasn’t broken. But I don’t think the case has been made that he sucked on little boy’s dicks. > > I saw him as a stunted, pathetic man, mentally trapped in a miserable childhood. > > It might be that he wanted surrogates of him at that age, that he wanted to improve the lives of children like he saw himself. > > Broken and child-like doesn’t mean he was a predator, it means he was a mess. He may not have. He could be totally innocent of anything. It just doesn’t seem that way. It just seems like it’s reaching to say that it’s because he was so child-like. Yeah, he could seem child-like when he wanted to be, but he was also ruthless enough in terms of business decisions and in terms of the kinds of people he hired, like PI Anthony Pellicano. Or those Vanity Fair articles that talk about how afraid people who work for Neverland are to speak out against him in any way. It’s nicer to be able to see him as a confused man-child, but I just don’t see any evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/26 "2009-07-06T20:40:13Z")
**Diogenes** , I have no particular interest in defending Michael Jackson, or accusing him, but the other day I read the readable Wiki article on him, and noticed the following: > [@](#): > > During the investigation, Jackson’s profile was examined by mental health professional Dr. Stan Katz; the doctor spent several hours with the accuser too. The assessment made by Katz was that Jackson had become a regressed 10-year-old and did not fit the profile of a pedophile.[125] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/27 "2009-07-06T20:44:38Z")
22 million bones. ETA who paid Katz? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/28 "2009-07-06T20:50:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What we know for certain you have pretty well covered. He was accused, twice, and paid off both. He paid one off, not two. While I would certainly never let him hang around my kids (if I had any), I see nothing unlikely about the possibility that he was a magnet for shakedown artists, which these kids and their families clearly were. This doesn’t rule out his having been a child molester, but it doesn’t prove he was either. > [@Amp](#): > > I find it funny how so many people jump up to Michael Jackson’s defense saying he was never convicted yet OJ Simpson, who was also never convicted, is universally thought of as a murdered. With OJ, there was clear evidence he did it, but it was excluded from the criminal trial and admitted in the civil trial. I don’t believe this was ever the case with Jackson. You either have special knowledge of his criminal acts, or you don’t. If you do, that ship sailed a few years ago and your silence made you complicit. If you don’t, the ship never arrived and what you “believe” is pretty irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/29 "2009-07-06T20:52:13Z")
What evidence was excluded from the OJ criminal trial? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/30 "2009-07-06T20:55:22Z")
Not all evidence can be used – or maybe I watch too much _Law & Order_. It’s entirely possible that something else WAS found that wasn’t admissible in court. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > I believe Culkin when he says MJ never acted inappropriately with him. I also think it’s a non-indicator. When they first started hanging out, Culkin was just as hugely famous as MJ, and with just as much clout in the industry and credibility with the public. Maybe more. If MJ had tried anything MC didn’t like, it would have been Armageddon. And forget paying him off or intimidating his family. So even if what MC says is true, and it most likely is, it could just be a smoke screen. That and Culkin’s father was an extreme bully – he would have blackmailed and sued Jacko into oblivion. Let’s not forget that Jordy Chandler was able to describe the man’s genitalia. In detail, from what I can recall. I’m sorry, dude was PEDO-Pan. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/31 "2009-07-06T21:05:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What evidence was excluded from the OJ criminal trial? Go [here](http://www.altereddimensions.net/crime/OJSimpsonMurders.aspx) and scroll down to “The Mistakes” near the bottom of the page. Also, he confessed to Rosey Grier (who visited Simpson in jail, in his capacity as a clergyman) within earshot of several other people. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/32 "2009-07-06T21:05:47Z")
I don’t think Culkin’s testimony means anything either. Just because he didn’t molest one kid, doesn’t mean he didn’t molest others. It would be like producing a bunch of 13 year old girls that Roman Polanski didn’t rape. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/33 "2009-07-06T21:06:41Z")
The first case never went to trial, so we don’t know what the evidence was. MJ paid the kid not to testify. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/34 "2009-07-06T21:09:29Z")
I’ve also never known a 13 year old boy (or an eight year old boy or however old MJ thought he was) who liked sleeping in the same bed as another kid his age or snuggling or holding hands, as MJ was doing in the Bashir documentary. I’d assume that most 13 year olds would react to that kind of behavior with, “Ew, homo” or “Fag.” Which actually is how, I believe, Gavin Arvizo’s peers reacted when that documentary aired. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/35 "2009-07-06T21:10:41Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Also, he confessed to Rosey Grier (who visited Simpson in jail, in his capacity as a clergyman) within earshot of several other people. Did he really, or did those “several other people” – who weren’t in the room – only hear what they wanted to hear? ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/36 "2009-07-06T21:24:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Let’s not forget that Jordy Chandler was able to describe the man’s genitalia. In detail, from what I can recall. IIRC, when Jackson had to have his “member” photographed, there was some speculation that there were distinctive marks due to his vitiligo. But after the pay-off Chandler refused to testify which is why no criminal charges were pursued. Looking an Wiki, I’d completely forgotten there was a third boy who was paid a couple million in hush money. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/37 "2009-07-06T21:27:08Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You don’t think it’s odd that he sought out the friendship of a boy with cancer and whose family had a history of suing unsuccessfully? Actually, I think it’s odd that he would seek out the friendship of young boys to begin with. Why only young boys? And why only boys between a certain age (about 10-13) who he tended to drop when they got older. It’s classic pedophile behavior, much as **Dio** has posted on above. The only thing that wasn’t “odd” about Michael Jackson was every other digit. I don’t think it begins to make a lick of sense to suggest that Gavin Arvizo was singled out as a kid that could be diddled with impunity because of his family’s shady side – it’s not as though momma showed up on the doorstep and said “Hi, I’m Janet, and this is my son, Gavin. We’ve just about run through the $150,000 settlement we extorted from J.C. Penney with a nuisance lawsuit claiming sexual abuse, and there’s only so much to be made from welfare fraud and ‘cancer fundraisers’ for treatments covered by our insurance, so we thought we’d just hang with you for a bit, if you don’t mind.” The suggestion that the witnesses for the prosecution were singularly unconvincing is actually _because_ Michael Jackson had a brilliant end-game in mind when he chose his victims is _prima facie_ ridiculous. As for the Whys and Wherefores of his behaviour with regard to young children, I think it’s fairly evident that he was emotionally and developmentally a pretty messed up dude, for whom a real-life “Neverland” held some appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/38 "2009-07-06T21:27:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > 22 million bones. > > ETA who paid Katz? I’m not arguing with you, because I have no opinion in this matter, but I honestly don’t understand neither of your lines. Perhaps the first line is a saying I haven’t heard before (not American/British)? The second, was Katz on the defense? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/39 "2009-07-06T21:28:45Z")
I thought Corey Feldman had recently hinted at being molested by MJ, but doesnt seem to have anything but kind words about him in [this article](http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20288168,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/40 "2009-07-06T21:29:18Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > In both cases, it’s probably because we read the court transcripts and considered the evidence that was presented.Yes, it was positively Machiavellian of him, the way he only abused children who would, in retrospect, appear to have been coached by mercenary scammers. > > Also, very clever of him to have the foresight to keep so many those “decoy” children around, to give credible support for his claim of non-erotic (if plain weird) friendships. > > “Ah-_ha!_ At some point in the future, it will become clear that this woman used her children as a ready-made shoplifting ring, and fabricated an apparently groundless sexual abuse claim against a major department store in order to score a significant cash settlement. I’ll bet her husband will even testify that she coaches the kids to say whatever needs to be said for her own purposes. I’ll bet I can get away with having a good ol’ wank session with _this_ boy, so long as I’m very careful never to succumb to temptation with any of those other kids, and make damn sure that there’s no incriminatiing evidence that might be turned up by an exhaustive search.” Larry Mudd, I dont have any desire to start an arguement with you about Michael Jackson, but do you really believe that no pedophile has thought out his actions in advance, groomed a suitable potential victim and passed up other less attractive/ more risky targets to focus on the one who would be the most suitable for said pedophile? It would seem to me that a successful pedo would have to be quite adept at delayed gratification, as opposed to (to quote Michael Palin) “Just going around buggering people”… (sorry, I know the context dosent really fit with Jackson , but that is my all time favorite line from A Fish Called Wanda) Point is, I dont think your hypothetical is totally out of the question. Why wouldnt he want to keep many other children around, including many he was not abusing? Seems like a good way to deflect attention to me… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108.md?page=3)