# Michael Jackson the Pederast? What Do We Actually know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 6, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108 "2009-07-06T18:25:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/141 "2009-07-07T23:30:10Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The only point I want to make is: if it weren’t for MJ’s fame–if he were just some rich dude who did the same things with boys–nearly 100% of posters in this thread would be _certain_ of his guilt and some would probably be calling for execution or some kind of horrific punishment. I’m curious what the reaction would be if he weren’t famous _or_ rich. Just a nice guy from down the block with a great entertainment system who, oh yeah, had a bad childhood and likes to have neighborhood boys to his place for sleepovers. So much of this is about being spoiled and surrounded by Yes Men and Women. It could have all been innocent, helping him fill a need, but he never acknowledged that he was ‘getting away’ with something others couldn’t – how would child welfare have reacted had an everyperson dangled their baby over the side of a hotel balcony? I want to live in a world where grown men can have close relationships with younger boys (and girls) and not be labeled pedophiles, not be paranoid that someone will misinterpret their Big Brother status or their devotion to the Little League team they coach or whatever. I really, really do. But he didn’t make it very easy to think the best of him. ---
**Author:** ![JHE1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3bc359/32.png) [@JHE1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHE1967)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/142 "2009-07-08T00:14:39Z")
Can someone give me the cliff notes of the first Vanity Fair article? I tried but after page 5 but could not keep track of the parents, step parents, what attorney represented who, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/143 "2009-07-08T02:08:07Z")
> [@Chris Moise](#): > > Can someone give me the cliff notes of the first Vanity Fair article? I tried but after page 5 but could not keep track of the parents, step parents, what attorney represented who, etc. Ok, here’s a a cast of characters: The cast of characters: Michael Jackson-the King of Pop, owner of Neverland Ranch, accused kiddy diddler His staff: Phillippe and Stella Lemarque, former cooks at Neverland, claimed that Jackson had a history of molesting young guests Mark and Faye Quindoy-former managers of Neverland, suing Jackson for back wages, questioned by police The Accuser and his family: “Jamie”, real name Jordan Chandler- 12 year old Michael Jackson fan Jordan’s Family, consisting of: Jordan’s Stepfather, Dave Schwartz, owner of Rent-a-Wreck, a car rental agency in LA Jordan’s Mother, June Chandler Schwartz, an ex-model Jordan’s Father, Evan Chandler, a dentist Jordan’s Half Sister, a 6 year old. The Lawyers: Larry Feldman- Jordan’s attorney Gloria Allred- Jordan’s first attorney, outspoken attorney and feminist Barry Rothman-Evan Chandler’s attorney Michael Freeman-June Chandler Schwarz’s attorney Bertram Fields-Jackson’s entertainment attorney, Partner at Greenberg Glusker Howard Weitzman-Jackson’s criminal attorney,Partner at Katten Muchin Zavis & Weitzman The Professionals: Anthony Pellicano- “Private Investigator to the Stars”, hired by Fields to investigate the Chandlers Dr. Mathis Abrams: Evan Chandler’s psychiatrist, analyzed Jordan Chandler Others: Eddie Reynoza: Actor, dancer in Thriller video, claims to have been molested by Jackson Paul Barresi: Friend of the Lemarques, secretly taped them and is trying to sell their story to the tabloids. Kevin Smith, Gary Morgan- Tabloid brokers, Owners of Splash News Service Diane Dimond-reporter for Hard Copy Cabell Bruce- producer of Hard Copy J. Randy Taraborrelli- author of an unauthorized biography of Jackson ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/144 "2009-07-08T06:07:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I think he also had a notion (and again, this is common), that he was forming real relationships with these kids, that he truly “loved,” them, etc. Could it be that he had some really severe issues such as a combonation of Asperger’s Syndrome-like behavoirs (not understanding normal social protocols) and borderline personality disorder? (as well as that disorder bodily dysmorphic disorder?) It’s very clear that he was incredibily emotionally stunted…to the point where I think you’d have to create another dx in the DSMV for him. I have to say that I think MANY if not most pedos are very emotionally stunted and can’t tell the difference between “friendly interest” and real honest to god healthy adult realtionships. It’s so sad. It’s hard to say whether or not he was a kiddy diddler or not. Yes, he was severely emotionally fucked up…but that still doesn’t mean that he was preying on kids. ---
**Author:** ![JHE1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3bc359/32.png) [@JHE1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHE1967)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/145 "2009-07-08T06:08:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ok, here’s a a cast of characters: Many thanks for that! ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/146 "2009-07-08T07:04:17Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > What it _sounds_ like isn’t relevant. What can be shown to me is. Also, you focus in on a few oddities and ignore all other data. The people making claims against him don’t have a great deal of credibility to start with. Those with money frequently throw it at problems to make them go away because it’s convenient to do so, and they have the resources. At the time, he had the resources. > > . I think this bears repeating - ALOT. “Paying off” the accusers seems to run counter to logic and is not something a rational person would do. BUT we don’t know what advice Michael was getting, we don’t know what else was happening at the time, we don’t know just how batshit insane he actually is and what was going through his head. The payoff (no matter in what amount) shouldn’t be used to support his guilt in and of itself. After all - the guy built his own personal themepark - just how sensible was he with money? ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/147 "2009-07-08T12:39:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re speculating as much as I am. I don’t have facts about what happened when he went to bed with those kids, neither do you. (That’s what I was saying about the record being incomplete.) We do know, by his admission, he often went to bed with children. We know he paid the family of one child a lot of money after being accused of molestation, we know he was charged with abuse by the family of another child. And I make the reasonable conclusion that abounds in science: no evidence = bad theory. You make the contrary conclusion: no evidence = likeliest solution anyway. One accords with a methodological process which has served the progress of humanity. And the other is yours. > [@](#): > > Did he pay off the first family to just make the problem go away, irrespective of guilt? It’s possible, but he was accused sometime in mid 1993 and didn’t settle until January 1, 1994. So if he was trying to make the problem go away, he failed completely, since it had been in the news for months by then. He wasn’t charged criminally, but if he’d wanted to keep it quiet, he could have paid them off many months earlier and dealt with less scandal. I won’t argue that the man was wise with his money, or that he never would have blown $22 million foolishly, but if he was trying to make this go away, he had many opportunities to do so and apparently did not choose to go that route until the problem had already exploded. I think this has been your most reasonable response yet. Why did he wait so long to throw money directly at the problem to make it go away instead nipping it early on? You’d have to ask him, but rumor has it he isn’t telling. I don’t know, maybe the lack of a criminal prosecution meant it was just publicity. I’m sure you’ve heard that all publicity is good publicity, right? I don’t know that this is his reasoning, but as I’ve said earlier, he surely does seem to buy into his own PR. There is no doubt that his mind didn’t work just like everyone else’s. The man lived in a fantasy about a lot of things. That, I think, is a fair assertion based on the evidence to which we have access. I just decline to read into his eccentric behavior that he’s a child rapist, without supporting evidence. Not one shred of evidence has ever come to light indicating he’s a child rapist. If people want to, as you seem to have no problem with, believe any dumbass idea out there just because they want to, so be it. That’s what a church is for. But, like many of people who walk out of the church and try the same tired arguments on the masses find out, a good portion of us humans actually enjoy having a powerful mind. We sometimes even use it. Why you refuse to be reasonable about it I don’t know. But if you want to believe he’s a child rapist _despite your argument being precisely 1 piece of evidence shy of having an actual piece of evidence_, have at it. Just stop with the bs rationale that it’s “the likeliest” conclusion. If the conclusion were so obvious, and so much the likeliest, one wonders why it isn’t universally held. The “likeliest” answer is time-honored claptrap. Why bother having to defend one’s position when one can just imply that others in the conversation aren’t bright enough to know what you claim to know? Obviously there’s a problem: this is the likeliest possible conclusion to be drawn, duh. It’s mentally vacant and intellectual dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/148 "2009-07-08T13:26:16Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > But that doesn’t stop us making very reasonable assumptions. > > Jackson was a shrewd and very competitive business man. Sort of goes against the notion that he was an emotionally retarded 10 year old manchild. Ummm, the man died 500 million in debt. He had some grand schemes to get out of from under it but he had been hemorrhaging money for years. He certainly had some advisers around that made some good business decisions over the years, but even those, like the purchase of the Sony catalog feel the same as collecting the Elephant man’s corpse. Just collecting something cool because he had the money. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/149 "2009-07-08T14:32:16Z")
> [@furlibusea](#): > > Ummm, the man died 500 million in debt. Convincing other people to loan you 500 million you don’t have surely counts as business acumen. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/150 "2009-07-08T15:21:41Z")
> [@furlibusea](#): > > but even those, like the purchase of the Sony catalog feel the same as collecting the Elephant man’s corpse. Surely people still don’t believe the Elephant man corpse urban legend. That’s was debunked back in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/151 "2009-07-08T15:23:23Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Surely people still don’t believe the Elephant man corpse urban legend. That’s was debunked back in the 90s. Apparently. I’ve seen that and the hyperbaric whatever chamber cited as examples of more weird MJ stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/152 "2009-07-08T15:34:03Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > And I make the reasonable conclusion that abounds in science: no evidence = bad theory. You make the contrary conclusion: no evidence = likeliest solution anyway. One accords with a methodological process which has served the progress of humanity. And the other is yours. I weep that you are applying your rigorous scientific mind to Michael Jackson instead of supersymmetry theory. However I disagree that there’s no evidence. No concrete proof, I agree, and you may not find the evidence convincing, but it isn’t invented out of whole cloth either. > [@](#): > > Just stop with the bs rationale that it’s “the likeliest” conclusion. If the conclusion were so obvious, and so much the likeliest, one wonders why it isn’t universally held. No conclusions are universally held. I guess you believe your argument is stronger if you paint everyone else as frothing and irrational, but I made it clear from the beginning that I was stating my opinion and did not denigrate anyone who disagreed. > [@](#): > > It’s mentally vacant and intellectual dishonest. It’s also vacant and dishonest to invent accusations like “you refuse to be reasonable” and “imply[ing] that others in the conversation aren’t bright enough.” ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/153 "2009-07-08T15:44:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I weep that you are applying your rigorous scientific mind to Michael Jackson instead of supersymmetry theory. > > However I disagree that there’s no evidence. No concrete proof, I agree, and you may not find the evidence convincing, but it isn’t invented out of whole cloth either. > No conclusions are universally held. I guess you believe your argument is stronger if you paint everyone else as frothing and irrational, but I made it clear from the beginning that I was stating my opinion and did not denigrate anyone who disagreed. > > It’s also vacant and dishonest to invent accusations like “you refuse to be reasonable” and “imply[ing] that others in the conversation aren’t bright enough.” A thousand pardons. I thought the title of the thread was “. . . What do we _know_” not what do we guess. And again, I ask you, since this evidence isn’t invented and is extant, please present it. You have, to date, not. You say I might not think the evidence is convincing, but you’re merely talking about some alleged evidence. Present some and we’ll discuss that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/154 "2009-07-08T15:48:18Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > A thousand pardons. I thought the title of the thread was “. . . What do we _know_” not what do we guess. I’m as shocked as you are that some opinions slipped into this thread. I don’t know how that happened. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/155 "2009-07-08T17:00:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m as shocked as you are that some opinions slipped into this thread. I don’t know how that happened. I know! How _could_ that happen, what with a moderator right here before us to keep hijacks out? =P ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/156 "2009-07-08T17:22:00Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > I know! How _could_ that happen, what with a moderator right here before us to keep hijacks out? =P Moderators sometimes intervene to keep threads from going wildly off track, but we aren’t the hijack police. In any case your objections are very, very late, since there is speculation even in the first post in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/157 "2009-07-08T17:44:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Moderators sometimes intervene to keep threads from going wildly off track, but we aren’t the hijack police. In any case your objections are very, very late, since there is speculation even in the first post in the thread. Oh, sorry. I didn’t realize it’s my job to keep track of this. =P Of course, I was merely jesting because you, a moderator, seem to the one who refuses to deal with what we do _know_ instead going with a “what I feel” vibe. Curiously enough, and I admire your patience, have refrained from posting even one piece of evidence so that your position would no longer be one piece of evidence shy of having one piece of evidence. The self-restraint is amazing. 🙂 Seriously though, you said that your position isn’t invented whole-cloth, that I merely am unconvinced by the evidence. I again invite you to lay some out for us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/158 "2009-07-08T17:46:58Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > Seriously though, you said that your position isn’t invented whole-cloth, that I merely am unconvinced by the evidence. I again invite you to lay some out for us. I’ve laid out my reasons for thinking what I think. I’ve also refrained from high handedness and unnecessary digs in the process, which you haven’t been able to do. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/159 "2009-07-08T17:57:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve laid out my reasons for thinking what I think. I’ve also refrained from high handedness and unnecessary digs in the process, which you haven’t been able to do. But you’ve laid out precisely zero evidence, yet based your reasoning on it. If the evidence is there, why not clue me in so that my errant thinking can be corrected? My point is that you have zero evidence because there is zero evidence. Reasons aren’t evidence. Assertions aren’t evidence. Conclusions aren’t evidence. But this is your position. Also, let’s not get too uppity as you’ve thrown a few digs as well. Or were your digs “necessary” and mine “not”? They are equally unnecessary, but make for rhetorical flourish. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108/160 "2009-07-08T18:10:45Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > If the evidence is there, why not clue me in so that my errant thinking can be corrected? How many times do you want me to repeat myself? > [@](#): > > Also, let’s not get too uppity as you’ve thrown a few digs as well. None, actually, before you started accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, stupidity, violating the tenets of human progress, and so on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jackson-the-pederast-what-do-we-actually-know/502108.md?page=9)