# Michael Jackson's death ruled homicide **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599 "2009-08-25T03:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/1 "2009-08-25T03:52:09Z")
Here’s the [MSNBC story](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32542682/ns/entertainment-music/). Question for medical types: that list of medications seems absolutely wild. Could those legitimately be given for insomnia? ---
**Author:** ![incidental](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/22d042/32.png) [@incidental](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/incidental)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/2 "2009-08-25T04:09:07Z")
Propofol? For insomnia? Fuck no. Propofol is a drug used for inducing general anesthesia - the idea that you’d use it for insomnia is insane. The only times I’ve seen propofol administered, the doc intubated and started giving oxygen shortly after. That doc is screwed. The key to avoiding malpractice suits is not to have good outcomes all the time - that’s impossible, sometimes bad stuff just happens no matter what you do - but to practice in accordance with ‘Standards of Care.’ Meaning that you’ve practiced medicine within the guidelines and recommendations of your field. This guy is way, way out of line. No reasonable physician would give someone propofol for insomnia, especially in an un-monitored setting. I’d anticipate that any legal action taken against him will be successful, and rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/3 "2009-08-25T05:13:43Z")
Really? I thought it was suicide. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/4 "2009-08-25T05:15:39Z")
We use propofol in veterinary medicine, too, usually for short procedures or in order to pass an endotracheal tube and give gas anesthesia. They usually stay down from the propofol for 10 to 15 minutes and you can give more if needed to effect. It must be given intravenously so a catheter is usually placed. I assume all this applies to people as well. I just can’t understand how a doctor would think that a short acting anesthetic would be a good sleep aid. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/5 "2009-08-25T05:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Murray told detectives that around 10:40 a.m. he gave in to Jackson’s “repeated demands/requests” for propofol, which the singer referred to as his “milk.” He administered 25 milligrams of the white-colored liquid, — a relatively small dose — and finally, Jackson fell asleep. > > Murray remained with the sedated Jackson for about 10 minutes, then left for the bathroom. No more than two minutes later, he returned — and found Jackson had stopped breathing. Jackson committed suicide by doctor. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/6 "2009-08-25T05:24:20Z")
Well, either way he’s still dead. And still making news. I heard on NY1 yesterday that the city is seriously thinking about renaming Jackson Ave in the Bronx to Michael Jackson Ave. WHAT connection did MJ ever have with the Bronx, or NYC for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/7 "2009-08-25T10:13:10Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Well, either way he’s still dead. And still making news. I heard on NY1 yesterday that the city is seriously thinking about renaming Jackson Ave in the Bronx to Michael Jackson Ave. WHAT connection did MJ ever have with the Bronx, or NYC for that matter? Didnt he appear at the Apollo Theater when very young? I seem to remember some pictures of him dancing there waaaaay back. I have to admit, I loved him when he was younger, and not fucked up. His dancing was amazing. Yes, i admit I used to watch the Jackson 5 cartoons … ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/8 "2009-08-25T10:24:36Z")
I tried to [start a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526671) on this question and it sank like a stone: > [@Did Dr. Conrad Murray sell his soul to the devil? (Michael Jackson related)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-dr-conrad-murray-sell-his-soul-to-the-devil-michael-jackson-related/505053/1): > > Did Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson’s personal physician, sell his soul to the devil (metaphorically speaking)? > > By devil, I mean whatever parasitic entourage was surrounding Michael Jackson, enabling the man-child to believe that he was special enough to demand a doctor who would ignore ethics and medical training to give him a dangerous drug under insane circumstances. > > And by metaphorically, I mean get your coat. > > After [reading this](http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20295384,00.html) and other stories, it sounds as if Dr. Murray had previously been a quite competent and decent doctor dedicated to serving his community. Many people say they owe their lives to him. But he had massive financial troubles, and one day Michael Jackson came around almost out of the blue and offered a “once in a lifetime opportunity” to have all his financial trouble solved . . . _but at what price?_ (Horses neigh, thunder rolls ominously.) > > Not to excuse him one bit, but how many times do you think Dr. Murray had to swallow his professional misgivings and give in to the synchophantic atmosphere surrounding MJ, because he recognized he had become just another one of the synchophants, and perhaps felt he had no other options? > > I’m posting this in Cafe Society because it’s about Michael Jackson and references the culture or what not surrounding pop stars like him, but mods pls feel free to move if appropriate. > > (Also, how unusual is it that a doctor like him would be offered a job paying US$150,000 per _month_?) ---
**Author:** ![Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abby_Emma_Sasha)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/9 "2009-08-25T11:04:30Z")
Almost an hour and a half transpired before Murray called 911. The worst part of this is that Jacko may have lived if that asshole had called an emergency right away. I hope he rots in prison. > **[Examiner is back - Examiner.com](https://examiner.com)** > > Examiner.com is the go-to source for millions of people who want to know what's happening in their city. And we're still growing! ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/10 "2009-08-25T14:29:21Z")
Of course if MJ wasn’t so fucked up. he’d still be alive today. So while the doctor should get some immediate blame for MJs death, he ultimately killed himself in a sense. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/11 "2009-08-25T15:05:50Z")
> [@Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](#): > > Almost an hour and a half transpired before Murray called 911. The worst part of this is that Jacko may have lived if that asshole had called an emergency right away. I hope he rots in prison. > > [Examiner is back - Examiner.com](http://www.examiner.com/x-12837-US-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m8d25-Michael-Jackson-death-timeline-Dr-Conrad-Murray-by-his-side-for-1-hour-20-min-before-911--call) He was trying to cover his ass. That’s probably when he started giving the flumazenil to reverse all the benzodiazepines. All those drugs he gave and not one of them is actually used for sleep disorders. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/12 "2009-08-25T15:12:56Z")
Couldn’t he just take an Ambien? They seem so good in all the commercials during the nightly news. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/13 "2009-08-25T15:13:14Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Of course if MJ wasn’t so fucked up. he’d still be alive today. So while the doctor should get some immediate blame for MJs death, he ultimately killed himself in a sense. While the first sentence is true, this is why powerful drugs are restricted. You have to have a doctor’s approval before using them, and doctors are supposed to say no when someone screwed up like MJ says “I can’t sleep, hit me with the anesthetic”. Of course, this is why MJ had to hire a doctor with massive financial problems and paid him $150,000 a month. It sure as hell wasn’t because he’s a great doctor. ---
**Author:** ![incidental](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/22d042/32.png) [@incidental](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/incidental)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/14 "2009-08-25T15:13:37Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Really? I thought it was suicide. :rolleyes: Drug seeking is pretty common in medicine. Tons of people come through doctor’s offices looking for narcotics, or other inappropriate treatment. If you are seeing patients, you’ve probably encountered a drug seeker. MJ’s doc should have known how to say no. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/15 "2009-08-25T15:40:14Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I tried to [start a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526671) on this question and it sank like a stone: You were absolutely correct, though. Like most of the other people around Jackson, this guy did whatever he was asked to do so the money would keep flowing his way. And it sounds like he very much earned his impending manslaughter charge. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/16 "2009-08-25T15:43:59Z")
There are laws about the prescribing of narcotics, and I think the question now is how Murray got the drug in the first place. There’s no record of him prescibing it, meaning it was an illegal act for which he can lose his license, even if Jackson’s death were ruled accidentally or a suicide. ---
**Author:** ![incidental](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/22d042/32.png) [@incidental](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/incidental)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/17 "2009-08-25T17:46:56Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > There are laws about the prescribing of narcotics, and I think the question now is how Murray got the drug in the first place. There’s no record of him prescibing it, meaning it was an illegal act for which he can lose his license, even if Jackson’s death were ruled accidentally or a suicide. Well, propofol isn’t a narcotic if I recall correctly. From the linked article: “But investigators served a search warrant Aug. 11 at a Las Vegas pharmacy and uncovered evidence showing Murray legally purchased from the store the propofol he gave Jackson the day he died.” I can’t imagine how you would legally purchase propofol without a prescription. I’m not sure if you’d need a DEA number to get it - I usually think of DEA numbers as being needed for narcotics. It might still be a controlled substance of some kind though. It’s just such a weird situation. No one that I know has ever heard of a drug seeker looking for propofol before. It’s just bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/18 "2009-08-25T17:51:31Z")
> [@Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](#): > > Almost an hour and a half transpired before Murray called 911. The worst part of this is that Jacko may have lived if that asshole had called an emergency right away. I hope he rots in prison. > > [Examiner is back - Examiner.com](http://www.examiner.com/x-12837-US-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m8d25-Michael-Jackson-death-timeline-Dr-Conrad-Murray-by-his-side-for-1-hour-20-min-before-911--call) I don’t know shit about shit but is a DOCTOR required to call a DOCTOR if something is amiss? Does he have any leeway to figure out the proper course of action himself? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/19 "2009-08-25T18:12:47Z")
For heaven’s sake, he had pressure sores from spending too much time in bed. He didn’t need drugs, he needed to go for a walk or something. This is like reading about the death of Howard Hughes. If you are rich enough, you can retreat into your own world, and nobody comes to get you out. Ick. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599/20 "2009-08-25T18:15:16Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I don’t know shit about shit but is a DOCTOR required to call a DOCTOR if something is amiss? Does he have any leeway to figure out the proper course of action himself? It would be common sense for professional standards of care to expect a doctor to call EMS if a patient goes south. One single specialist is no substitute for a trauma team and all the gear of the ER. ETA: It like this. I go to my allergist, get a shot, and then have to wait in her office to make sure I don’t have a reaction and keel over. If I _do_ have a reaction, the clinic staff will do their best able to stabilize me until tan ambulance can get me to the ER. My allergist specializes in _allergies_, she is not the best pick for reviving me from mostly-dead. Chatting with a surgeon I know, he once said I’d be better off having a heart attack with my EMT buddy present than him. He could slice me open to fix my carpal tunnel syndrome, but the paramedic would be better at pounding the life back into me until I got to a hospital. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-homicide/507599.md?page=2)