# Michael Moore, have you at last no decency? (short) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041 "2004-04-08T22:14:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/81 "2004-04-09T16:50:08Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Of course, the image lacks the thousands of Iraqi civilian dead, so that more than makes up for any duplication of American dead, I’d think. Also, that number doesn’t include U.S. soldiers contracted through private companies. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/82 "2004-04-09T17:06:36Z")
It makes me laugh/throw up my hands/let out an anguished grunt (depending how I’m feeling) to hear people talking about using images of dead soldiers for “political purposes”. For fuck’s sake! They \*\*died \*\* for a purely political purpose! I think that is somehow quite a lot worse than using their pictures. Jesus. And why is Michael Moore copping the flak for this? He had nothing to do with the image, as far as I can tell, he just used it on his site. And for what it’s worth, from this side of the Atlantic, people like Moore (and, thank God, a lot of the posters on the SDMB) are the only evidence we have that there are actually people with \*functioning fucking brains \* over there, and not just morons that’ll swallow whatever shite Bush crimps off daily from between his simian butt cheeks. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/83 "2004-04-09T17:09:03Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Just curious: is it possible, in your eyes, for Moore to make any type of political statement without you seeing it as self-promotion? Possible, but not likely when done in on mass media. > [@](#): > > And how would one distinguish between one that is self-promotion, and one that is not self-promotion? For starters you wouldn’t have an image of dead Americans that when clicked opens to an advertisement to your (much debunked by both left and right wing sources) book. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/84 "2004-04-09T17:15:08Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Possible, but not likely when done in on mass media. If you have a political statement you’d like to make and you have access to the mass media, you’d be a fool not to use it. Basically, you’re saying that any political statement that successfully reaches an audience can be dismissed as self-promotion. Also, isn’t the “mass media” here just a webpage, which all of us could set up? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/85 "2004-04-09T17:34:58Z")
If this picture “makes you think”, then I have to conclude you weren’t trying very hard beforehand. Do you really need a poorly done photo montage to drive home the fact that 650 American troops have died in Iraq so far? I thought the “Bush of Assholes” was clever. This one is derivative, insulting, and disingenuous at best. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/86 "2004-04-09T17:44:36Z")
> [@r\_k](#): > > And for what it’s worth, from this side of the Atlantic, people like Moore (and, thank God, a lot of the posters on the SDMB) are the only evidence we have that there are actually people with \*functioning fucking brains \* over there, and not just morons that’ll swallow whatever shite Bush crimps off daily from between his simian butt cheeks. 1. _To generalize is to be an idiot._ William Blake 2. If you see Moore’s gray matter as exemplary of a “functioning brain” (fucking or otherwise) then it’s a greater indictment of education and reasoning skills on your “side of the Atlantic” than of anything American. There are many radical liberals who can make you think (Gore Vidal comes immediately to mind)- Moore isn’t one. 3. It is very possible to be simultaneously anti-Bush and anti-sensationalist agitprop. I am. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/87 "2004-04-09T17:59:31Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > So it is now acceptable to you leftists the the dead are politicized? > > And before you reply, yeah, I read the thread where you guys have said that Moore’s is not using this image for personal gain. But that’s a strawman. Nobody was claiming anything like it when you used it as a defense. > > AmLeft is using images of the dead to make a political statement; they are employing the pictures for in support of their wholly political cause. Period. I do not appreciate people using tragedy for personal gain. I do appreciate people using persuasive language and evocative visuals to communicate their opinions on a topic. How mutually exclusive can these two things ever be? If my argument performs it’s desired effect and I am persuasive, I “win” by communicating my viewpoint to others. > [@](#): > > If a guy (Bush) is using images of the dead & 9/11 in his effort to be re-elected, when his ideological opponents use images of dead Americans in the cause to defeat his re-election efforts, the two uses are politically eqiuvalent. They are not politically equivalent. The former is used by a guy in a bid for the office of the richest, most influential nation on earth. The latter is used by a group of activists who are making a political statement and will likely have the same old jobs no matter who wins the election. It _is_ a fight of ideaology, it’s just that the image’s creators have far more in common with you and I than they do with the President of the United States of America. How are our efforts to prove whether an image is offensive or not any different than AmLeft’s efforts to prove the President’s involvement the death of our troops? You can tell me when you recieve AmLeft’s response to your letter. ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/88 "2004-04-09T18:18:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Cut the BS. Nobody was counting the photos, until some weasel started counting. Scene: **New Iskander** is making a deal with a drug dealer. Drug Dealer: [opens up briefcase of cash containing $1,000,000] Look at all this money! I will give you ten thousand dollars!!! **New Iskander** : Um, that briefcase has one million… Drug Dealer: You fucking weasel! Get out of my office! ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/89 "2004-04-09T18:19:49Z")
> [@Mojo](#): > > Do you really need a poorly done photo montage to drive home the fact that 650 American troops have died in Iraq so far? “650” is hard data. The use of the faces of the fallen humanizes that number. So yes, seeing their faces in a mosaic (the one in question as well as a straight, un-altered mosaic) does “drive home” the fact. And, not that you asked, but juxtaposing those faces with the man who put them in harm’s way is evocative. But I can only speak for myself. Someone who must not have been trying very hard to think in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/90 "2004-04-09T18:28:22Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Possible, but not likely when done in on mass media. That’s a bit unfair, I’d say. It’s basically his job to make political statements, and of course he has to use the media. Nobody’s going to pay him to mumble stuff to his dog. Is every single statement by every single pundit that goes out over media to be instantly dismissed as self-promotion? Or does only Moore have this dillemma? Surely, you must then dismiss every statement made by Limbaugh or O’Reilly, since they are making them via mass media too? Is the only valid non-self-promotional commentary when a pundit calls you personally on the phone? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/91 "2004-04-09T18:55:41Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > That’s a bit unfair, I’d say. It’s basically his job to make political statements, and of course he has to use the media. Nobody’s going to pay him to mumble stuff to his dog. > > Is every single statement by every single pundit that goes out over media to be instantly dismissed as self-promotion? Or does only Moore have this dillemma? > > Surely, you must then dismiss every statement made by Limbaugh or O’Reilly, since they are making them via mass media too? Is the only valid non-self-promotional commentary when a pundit calls you personally on the phone? Nice strawman, but I like [this one](http://www.brakpage.com/images/scarecrow_oz.gif) better. If you can point to any place that I or anybody else has said that “Michael Moore is the only self-promoting factually bankrupt pundit out there and all conservative pundits are wise beyond their years and objective in their approach” that would be valid- I’ll give you a moment to look. (Hint: you won’t find such a statement in any of the pit threads I’ve started for O’Reilly, Limbaugh or Hannity.) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/92 "2004-04-09T19:14:08Z")
**Sampiro** , try reading my last post again. I didn’t say you thought he was only one, I was _asking_ if you did. Hint: sentences that end in question marks are questions. Strawman, heal thyself. And I’d still like to know how Moore or any other pundit is supposed to work without using the media. Or are they by default all self-promoters to be completely dismissed, unless they call you personally? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/93 "2004-04-09T19:54:25Z")
> [@](#): > > And I’d still like to know how Moore or any other pundit is supposed to work without using the media. Or are they by default all self-promoters to be completely dismissed, unless they call you personally? You speak of pundits as if they were answering a holy calling. If they rely on sensationalized imagery and misleading-if-not-demonstrably-wrong “facts” (both hallmarks of Moore’s career) to keep their fame then yes, they are all self promoters to be completely dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/94 "2004-04-09T19:56:20Z")
And yes, I dismiss every statement made by Moore, Limbaugh and O’Reilly unless it is corroborated by a more reliable source, as should you. They are all proven liars who cannot be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/95 "2004-04-09T20:15:45Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Not that it’ll matter to the idiots who treat every word from him as if it were divine truth. Cite? Even people who generally like Michael Moore tend to have an attitude of “well, he’s a bit nutty at times and not the most rigorous of intellects, but I’m glad someone like him exists, and I appreciate his enthusiasm” or something along those lines. (Many people also defend him against the accusations of inaccuracy which, while sometimes grounded in truth, tend to go way way way too far… Bowling for Columbine and the attacks on it being a good example.) So please point out the next person who treats every word from him as if it were divine truth. Oh, and I agree that there’s some inherent dishonesty in the image, although I still find it powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/96 "2004-04-09T20:22:23Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > You speak of pundits as if they were answering a holy calling. How did I do that? Looks to me like I referred to them in neutral terms. > [@Sampiro](#): > > If they rely on sensationalized imagery and misleading-if-not-demonstrably-wrong “facts” (both hallmarks of Moore’s career) to keep their fame then yes, they are all self promoters to be completely dismissed. Well, to me that makes them simply liars, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/97 "2004-04-09T20:26:41Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > And yes, I dismiss every statement made by Moore, Limbaugh and O’Reilly unless it is corroborated by a more reliable source, as should you. They are all proven liars who cannot be trusted. I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/98 "2004-04-09T20:50:23Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by Sampiro And yes, I dismiss every statement made by Moore, Limbaugh and O’Reilly unless it is corroborated by a more reliable source, as should you. They are all proven liars who cannot be trusted. ## I agree completely. Hey, if you are making a list of liars, don’t forget Bush and Cheney. And, lumping Moore in with Limbaugh and O’Reilly in a group of liars is fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/99 "2004-04-09T21:01:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > 1. If you see Moore’s gray matter as exemplary of a “functioning brain” (fucking or otherwise) then it’s a greater indictment of education and reasoning skills on your “side of the Atlantic” than of anything American. There are many radical liberals who can make you think (Gore Vidal comes immediately to mind)- Moore isn’t one. Michael Moore is one of the few people who has achieved any mainstream notoriety who even raises certain important issues. He seems to be fairly well known outside of the United States, unlike more obscure intellectual types. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041/100 "2004-04-09T21:19:25Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Cut the BS. Nobody was counting the photos, until some weasel started counting. Everybody was responding on an emotional level, as one must to such things. And everybody is well familiar with an actual number of dead US soldiers. So knock it off, please. It didn’t take a Brainiac to multiply “number across by number down”, nor did it take any mental Michelangelo to see “oh, there’s a repeated photo. And there’s another. And another.” And I even posted as such, but also noted (correctly) that it didn’t claim there were more than 648 dead. So, verifying how many “pixels” make up an image is being a “weasel” now? Why exactly is that? Claiming such, in fact, seems to _exactly_ back up the implication (which I don’t share) that the picture is purposely meant to mislead as to the number of dead. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-have-you-at-last-no-decency-short/239041.md?page=6)