# Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915 "2010-06-04T13:18:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/181 "2010-06-10T12:21:32Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Not one of those is a goal of the NRA. Not one. It’s the direction they’re headed. They’ve been pushing for state laws that overrule the private property rights of restaurant owners and the like, and have been successful in some states. At least, I’d consider overruling the property owner’s right to say, “you’re welcome here, but your gun isn’t” an overruling of private property rights. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/182 "2010-06-10T13:39:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s the direction they’re headed. They’ve been pushing for state laws that overrule the private property rights of restaurant owners and the like, and have been successful in some states. > > At least, I’d consider overruling the property owner’s right to say, “you’re welcome here, but your gun isn’t” an overruling of private property rights. YMMV. That’s a sticky question–it’s going to boil down to the fact that at least some NRA folks think (due to the language of the 2nd Amendment) that saying “Your gun is not welcome here” as a private property rights is nearly the same as “Your skin color is not welcome here” as a private property right. I don’t know how I feel about this at all, personally, but it’s at least in the same vicinity as logical in the case of public spaces and businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/183 "2010-06-10T15:49:33Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s the direction they’re headed. They’ve been pushing for state laws that overrule the private property rights of restaurant owners and the like, and have been successful in some states. > > At least, I’d consider overruling the property owner’s right to say, “you’re welcome here, but your gun isn’t” an overruling of private property rights. YMMV. Well, that’s kind of sticky. A restaurant isn’t exactly a private space, but it isn’t exactly a public one. For example, as \*\*Zeriel \*\*alluded, I could refuse to allow Black people into my home, but not into my restaurant. Why should I be able to restrict someone from bringing in an item that they’re legally allowed to have in public? On the other hand, a gun is very different from, say, a handbag. So, I’m not sure where I fall on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/184 "2010-06-10T16:26:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > The Frogurt is also cursed. Ok, you made me chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/185 "2010-06-10T16:39:44Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Well, that’s kind of sticky. A restaurant isn’t exactly a private space, but it isn’t exactly a public one. For example, as \*\*Zeriel \*\*alluded, I could refuse to allow Black people into my home, but not into my restaurant. Why should I be able to restrict someone from bringing in an item that they’re legally allowed to have in public? On the other hand, a gun is very different from, say, a handbag. So, I’m not sure where I fall on this one. I’m legally allowed to have a car, you know. Better open those restaurant doors real wide. [QUOTE=Elv1sLives] You just find something else to play up as a threat, or something else to get your donor base angry. It isn’t hard, it only takes a little creativity. [/QUOTE] “President Michelle Obama is coming to take your guns!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/186 "2010-06-10T17:10:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m legally allowed to have a car, you know. Better open those restaurant doors real wide. There are a few arguments here; however, that’s damn funny, I don’t care who you are. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/187 "2010-06-10T17:11:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m legally allowed to have a car, you know. Better open those restaurant doors real wide. When I said I wanted to open a drive-in restaurant, that _wasn’t_ what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/188 "2010-06-10T17:44:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m legally allowed to have a car, you know. Better open those restaurant doors real wide. Serious answer now: if I have a properly concealed handgun, you will never know I’m carrying it. This is not true of your Miata. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/189 "2010-06-10T18:27:54Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Serious answer now: if I have a properly concealed handgun, you will never know I’m carrying it. Ditto with C4. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/190 "2010-06-10T18:50:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Ditto with C4. Realistically, I’m not afraid of either one being used on me in a restaurant in a concealed-carry state. Also realistically, one’s legal (and generally requires a license) and the other is not. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/191 "2010-06-10T19:15:47Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Serious answer now: if I have a properly concealed handgun, you will never know I’m carrying it. This is not true of your Miata. “So, is that a convertible in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?” “It’s a convertible.” “… Oh.” “But that wasn’t the top that just popped up.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/192 "2010-06-10T19:43:54Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Serious answer now: if I have a properly concealed handgun, you will never know I’m carrying it. This is not true of your Miata. But suppose it’s not concealed? Although apparently if you’re going to open-carry in Virginia restaurants, [you’d better do so between now and the end of the month](http://www.opencarry.org/press.html), because the law’s about to change. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/193 "2010-06-10T20:05:00Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Realistically, I’m not afraid of either one being used on me in a restaurant in a concealed-carry state. Also realistically, one’s legal (and generally requires a license) and the other is not. So why bother bringing either into a restaurant. And why is C4 not protected under the 2nd amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/194 "2010-06-10T20:17:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But suppose it’s not concealed? > > Although apparently if you’re going to open-carry in Virginia restaurants, [you’d better do so between now and the end of the month](http://www.opencarry.org/press.html), because the law’s about to change. Given the realistic threat of intimidation, I’m (and this revokes my gun-supporter cred, I’m sure) iffy on open carry in public places. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/195 "2010-06-10T20:20:42Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So why bother bringing either into a restaurant. And why is C4 not protected under the 2nd amendment? First question: I’m on my way home from the shooting range or a competition, I don’t have an appropriate safe in my car, and I want to eat something that’s not from a drive-thru. This, by the way, covers 100% of the times I’ve been armed in a restaurant. No one gave any indication they knew I was armed. Second question: I’m enough of a military dork and realist that I am quite happy to distinguish between “arms” (which connotes “personal infantry weapons” to me) and “ordnance” (which connotes explosives, multi-crew weapons, and generally the heavy hitting stuff that is more “regular army” than “citizen’s militia”). One’s mentioned in the Second Amendment, one’s not. I don’t particularly care if that’s a founding-fathers-kosher position, because it makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/196 "2010-06-10T20:45:02Z")
Out of curiosity, I’ve been flipping through the relevant Florida Statutes on the matter, and it appears that I may openly carry a sword, should I wish to do so, provided I don’t exhibit it in a rude, angry, careless or threatening manner. Or visit a school or other place of public nuisance. This opens interesting possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/197 "2010-06-10T20:53:37Z")
You know, that ban on dueling? Maybe time to re-think that. If two guys want to go outside and settle this man-to-man, its going to eventually cut down on the testosterone poisoned assholes, and elide them from the gene pool. Of course, ten paces may be a bit much. Two, three paces. Cuts down on collateral damage, ensure more genetic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/198 "2010-06-10T21:32:30Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Given the realistic threat of intimidation, I’m (and this revokes my gun-supporter cred, I’m sure) iffy on open carry in public places. I’d be less worried about intimidation and more worried about some well meaning idiot “helping” by shooting at someone or something he has no business shooting at. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Out of curiosity, I’ve been flipping through the relevant Florida Statutes on the matter, and it appears that I may openly carry a sword, should I wish to do so, provided I don’t exhibit it in a rude, angry, careless or threatening manner. I suggest a brightly colored ribbon tied in a pretty bow on the handle. That sounds polite to me! > [@elucidator](#): > > Of course, ten paces may be a bit much. Two, three paces. Cuts down on collateral damage, ensure more genetic cleansing. Needs more Tina Turner in a chain mail bikini. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/199 "2010-06-11T00:56:35Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’d be less worried about intimidation and more worried about some well meaning idiot “helping” by shooting at someone or something he has no business shooting at. This is another very good reason that open carry should rightly be considered more dangerous than concealed carry and if possible regulated more–I wouldn’t be averse to requiring the type of holsters that require a specific quick movement pattern to draw or the gun remains locked into place–forget what they’re called technically. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Out of curiosity, I’ve been flipping through the relevant Florida Statutes on the matter, and it appears that I may openly carry a sword, should I wish to do so, provided I don’t exhibit it in a rude, angry, careless or threatening manner. Or visit a school or other place of public nuisance. Sadly, in my high school days, when everyone else was goth, I was actually carrying a sword in public for the “style” value. Pretty sure it wasn’t actually legal–equally sure that I knew all the cops in my hometown and environs and they knew I was approximately as harmless as soggy toast. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/200 "2010-06-11T01:54:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Although apparently if you’re going to open-carry in Virginia restaurants, [you’d better do so between now and the end of the month](http://www.opencarry.org/press.html), because the law’s about to change. I think you’re misunderstanding the link. The law banning concealed carry in restaurants/bars is repealed effective July 1. I had a thread about it around the time the bastard we have in Richmond signed the bill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915.md?page=11)