# Michael Moore is a liar after all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665 "2004-07-30T23:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/81 "2004-07-31T19:08:31Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > The op-ed section is the part of the newspaper that’s designated for _opinions_. The front page of the newspaper is where factual stories go. Taking a headline from the op-ed section, and fabricating an edition of the newspaper where that headline appears on the front makes it appear as if the newspaper was reporting the _opinion_ has _fact_. He _created an image of something that didn’t exist (the headline on the front page) and presented it as if it did exist_. I consider that to be inserting something fictional into his film. YMMV. Indeed my mileage does vary. He didn’t make it up, he used the wrong typeface and page number. I do agree that he should have been more careful (this thread title shows why). > [@Metacom](#): > > Have you even bothered to read the thread? The issue is Moore’s credibility, not the validity of his film. Yes I read the thread. And discerned that Bush supporters were desperate to distract attention from the real issues. I think that showing the truth about politicians is hard to do. (You should see how Tony Blair covers up Iraq here in the UK. Also our School Inspection Board recently announced it was doing a fantastic job. According to a report written by … our School Inspection Board. But I digress.) I think Moore has done a fine job for democracy. I don’t see why one misleading frame affects his amazing research findings. So you agree that nothing in this thread invalidates the film and its message? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/82 "2004-07-31T19:08:49Z")
> [@glee](#): > > (I have this splendid device called a dictionary, you see. I use that rather than your practice of defining words to mean whatever you want.) Cite? Please show me where I’ve defined words to mean what I want in this thread. In addition to knowing how to use a dictionary, I also know how to use a thesaurus. Let’s see what “Roget’s New Millenium Thesaurus” has on the word “lie”. I’ve bolded a couple of words. > [@Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus](#): > > Entry: **lie** > Function: verb > Definition: falsify > Synonyms: be untruthful, beguile, break promise, bull, con, concoct, deceive, delude, dissemble, dissimulate, distort, dupe, equivocate, exaggerate, fabricate, fake, falsify, fib, forswear, frame, fudge, invent, jazz, jive, make believe, malign, misguide, misinform, misinstruct, **mislead** , misrepresent, misspeak, misstate, overdraw, palter, perjure, pervert, phony up, plant, prevaricate, promote, put on, queer, snow, soft-soap, string along, victimize > Concept: lying > [@](#): > > Now the thread title calls Moore a liar. > All that’s been proved is that he was misleading in one shot in the 2 hour film. > You claim that ‘misleading’ and liar’ are always identical. Well, they are not Being intentionally misleading is, in fact, synonymous with lieing. > [@](#): > > P.S. In your definition, is inaccurate = lie? No. But being _deliberately innacurate_ is lying. Making up an image of a newspaper requires deliberate action, so I think it’s fair to characterize that has a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/83 "2004-07-31T19:14:36Z")
And yet Moore’s doc reaped more money than all of this year’s Disney’s movies combined: 😃 Go on and contiune on with the “Moore lies” brass. It will continue to help you further your advancement into the total failure club. Of course those who brandish Moore are failing miserably. The more they brandish him, the more people will believe Moore and the more will go to watch his film. You are all making fools out of yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/84 "2004-07-31T19:14:45Z")
> [@glee](#): > > So you agree that nothing in this thread invalidates the film and its message? YES. I’ve stated, several times, in this very thread, that I think this detracts from Moore’s credibility, and not the validity of his films message. I’m actually pretty far out on the left, even for this board. I just don’t like people who lie (or mislead, beguile, bull, con, delude, distort, dupe, fabricate, fake, falsify, fib, fudge, misguide, misinform, misrepresent, pater, perjure, etc.) of any political persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/85 "2004-07-31T19:19:07Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > It’s not a matter of inaccuracy. I was referring to Ring of Fire’s logic chain proving that ‘misleading’ = ‘lie’. You are welcome to comment on that. I agree that **deliberately** representing opinion as fact is dishonest. Presumably there were enough examples in the way Bush and Blair presented the case for war to call them both liars then? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/86 "2004-07-31T19:22:10Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > You are all making fools out of yourselves. Shoot, it’s a **milroyj** thread. By definition, the thread is moronic. Anyone who joins in (myself included) is tainted by the vile bilge water in the well. No other outcome is possible. We’re all slow learners, it would seem. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/87 "2004-07-31T19:23:00Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Cite? Please show me where I’ve defined words to mean what I want in this thread. You said that ‘misleading’ meant ‘lying’. Now you say: > [@Metacom](#): > > (bolding mine) > Being **intentionally** misleading is, in fact, synonymous with lieing. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/88 "2004-07-31T19:25:46Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > And yet Moore’s doc reaped more money than all of this year’s Disney’s movies combined Do you have a cite for that, or are you just pulling it out of your ass? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/89 "2004-07-31T19:28:34Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I was referring to Ring of Fire’s logic chain proving that ‘misleading’ = ‘lie’. You are welcome to comment on that. > > I agree that **deliberately** representing opinion as fact is dishonest. > Presumably there were enough examples in the way Bush and Blair presented the case for war to call them both liars then? Bush and Blair are not the topic of this thread. MM is dishonest, by your own admission. Somehow your response to that is BUSH LIED! Typical response, but not on point. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/90 "2004-07-31T19:32:32Z")
It’s always amusing to watch Moore’s Harem twist and turn like pretzels in a desperate, frantic attempt to keep their King from being labeled with the big L-word. As if the entertainment value of his products - the only value they have, of course - would be diminished. Do you really need him to be a squeaky-clean pure-as-fallen-snow Saint in order to enjoy wanking to his material? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/91 "2004-07-31T19:33:37Z")
> [@glee](#): > > You said that ‘misleading’ meant ‘lying’. > Now you say: > > Which is it? I’m sorry, I assumed, that, given the context of this discussion, it was obvious that the misleading that occured was intentional. Unless you think Michael Moore accidently made a fake image and put it in his film? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/92 "2004-07-31T19:40:27Z")
Moore blew it on this one, and there was no reason to do so. My understanding is that he wanted to show that there were problems with the election in Florida, and that it’s still up in the air as to who should have won the state. If that was his point, I think he’s correct. There are lots of ways of getting the same point across without faking a front-page headline, even if the text did technically appear in the paper. While I consider it an innocuous error in judgment, it was one nonetheless. For those who wish to say that this calls into question his entire movie, it doesn’t. If you wish to show errors in his movie, show them. If we discounted every single statement made by a source based on the fact that they were misleading at some point, where would you get your information? ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/93 "2004-07-31T19:51:26Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Do you have a cite for that, or are you just pulling it out of your ass? [http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=112659244&p=yyz65995x](http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=112659244&p=yyz65995x) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/94 "2004-07-31T19:57:15Z")
Sinful, while milroyj is hardly the person to be requiring cites, I think he’s correct on this one, unless you made a mistake in your original post. You stated that this movie made more than **all** of the Disney movies combined for the year, when Moore says it made more than **any** single Disney movie this year. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/95 "2004-07-31T19:58:04Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > [http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=112659244&p=yyz65995x](http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=112659244&p=yyz65995x) First of all, your statement was that F911 made more money than all of Disney’s movies combined. Yet your cite says it made more money than any of Disney’s movies, which may, or may not, be true, but it’s not the same thing. Yes, I know F911 grossed $100 million, now, do you have a cite showing that the combined Disney movies grossed less than that? I find it unprobable, at best. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/96 "2004-07-31T20:02:12Z")
D’oh. Improbable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/97 "2004-07-31T20:10:50Z")
Not having seen the movie, Moore’s response to this charge, the original Pantagraph page, or the relevant stills from the movie, I can’t judge this. I suspect that nobody else here has all the facts, either; this is classic premature judgment. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/98 "2004-07-31T20:16:15Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Not having seen the movie, Moore’s response to this charge, the original Pantagraph page, or the relevant stills from the movie, I can’t judge this. I suspect that nobody else here has all the facts, either; this is classic premature judgment. > > Daniel Do you expect that the Pantagraph, a college-town newspaper in a solid blue state, is making stuff up? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/99 "2004-07-31T20:30:52Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Do you expect that the Pantagraph, a college-town newspaper in a solid blue state, is making stuff up? College town? Blue state? Why, then, those drones MUST love Moore! There are no conservatives, much less dishonest conservatives, in blue-state college towns. I suspect nothing of the sort, but nor do I especially doubt it. I don’t have enough information to make a judgment. And nor do you. The difference is, your mind is already made up–or did you have no opinion on Moore before reading this? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/100 "2004-07-31T20:39:05Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > College town? Blue state? Why, then, those drones MUST love Moore! There are no conservatives, much less dishonest conservatives, in blue-state college towns. > > I suspect nothing of the sort, but nor do I especially doubt it. I don’t have enough information to make a judgment. And nor do you. The difference is, your mind is already made up–or did you have no opinion on Moore before reading this? > > Daniel I don’t see how this is a judgement call, really. The newspaper says that MM misquoted them by portraying an opinion piece as a news headline. I have no reason to doubt the Pantagraph, do you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665.md?page=6)