# Michael Moore is a liar after all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665 "2004-07-30T23:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/101 "2004-07-31T20:42:50Z")
Now for the other side. milroyj, you seem to be implying that the Pantagraph is the **last** newspaper that would be lying about this, being a college town in a state that votes mostly for the Democratic Party. You’d be wrong. That’s not to say that they’re lying, as I don’t see any reason to believe they are, but you should stop reaching. You fail to mention that it happens to be a **highly** conservative area, and that the county [voted](http://illinoisleader.com/marketplace/profile.asp?p=1871) for Bush with 34,008 votes to Gore’s 24,936. That’s an extreme lean towards the right. Can we stick to the facts, which is what we’re asking of Moore? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/102 "2004-07-31T20:54:06Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > You fail to mention that it happens to be a **highly** conservative area, and that the county [voted](http://illinoisleader.com/marketplace/profile.asp?p=1871) for Bush with 34,008 votes to Gore’s 24,936. That’s an extreme lean towards the right. How does the fact that the county voted for Bush 34K vs. 24K make it “highly conservative”? In your opinion, is anyone who votes Republican “highly conservative”? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/103 "2004-07-31T21:07:13Z")
I suspect you’re reading that wrong. The area would be ‘highly conservative’, because roughly 60% voted republican. and we’ll assume you’re ‘ok’ with calling an area that votes predominately republican ‘conservative’, since one of your points was that the paper itself was in a “blue state” (ie democratic leaning). so **DMC’s** point being that even though the entire state seemed to vote democratic (or liberal), the specific area the paper was from voted strongly republican (or conservative). so your point wrt the ‘blue state’ would have been, what was that word??? oh, yea, _misleading_ ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/104 "2004-07-31T21:12:48Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > It’s always amusing to watch Moore’s Harem twist and turn like pretzels in a desperate, frantic attempt to keep their King from being labeled with the big L-word. It’s always amusing to watch Bush’s concubines spank their monkies purple over trivialities in a desperate attempt to turn blind eyes and hairy palms from the real problems with their King, and to assuage their fears that he will be labeled as a big one-term blunder. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/105 "2004-07-31T21:16:03Z")
> [@wring](#): > > I suspect you’re reading that wrong. The area would be ‘highly conservative’, because roughly 60% voted republican. I disagree. Republican does not equal highly conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/106 "2004-07-31T21:16:41Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > First of all, your statement was that F911 made more money than all of Disney’s movies combined. Yet your cite says it made more money than any of Disney’s movies, which may, or may not, be true, but it’s not the same thing. > > Yes, I know F911 grossed $100 million, now, do you have a cite showing that the combined Disney movies grossed less than that? I find it unprobable, at best. lol [http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Moore+enjoying+Disney+bosses'+'comeuppance'&c=&ei=UTF-8](http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Moore+enjoying+Disney+bosses%27+%27comeuppance%27&c=&ei=UTF-8) Guess who is picking the charities for Michael Moore’s doc??? [http://news.search.yahoo.com/search](http://news.search.yahoo.com/search)…+fahrenheit+911 ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/107 "2004-07-31T21:24:12Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > lol > [http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Moore+enjoying+Disney+bosses'+'comeuppance'&c=&ei=UTF-8](http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Moore+enjoying+Disney+bosses%27+%27comeuppance%27&c=&ei=UTF-8) > > Guess who is picking the charities for Michael Moore’s doc??? > > [http://news.search.yahoo.com/search](http://news.search.yahoo.com/search)…+fahrenheit+911 You’re an idiot. A cite, please, that F911 made more than ALL of Disney’s films, which is what you claimed. You made the claim, now back it up. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/108 "2004-07-31T21:29:19Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I disagree. Republican does not equal highly conservative. you’re definately reading it wrong. I did **not** say “republicans = highly conservative” The **area** is “Highly conservative” **because** “roughly 60% vote republican” See - Roughly 60% vote republican, republican = **conservative** (not, repeat **not** “highly conservative”). Total area = 100%, 60% conservate = \*\*area ‘highly conservative’. Again, I will assume that you do not object to the qualification that “republican= conservative”. (you **will** please note, once again, that I did **not** put in “Highly conservative” when saying “republican = conservative”). the _ **area** _ is 'highly conservative because a “high” proportion of the voters there voted in a conservative manner. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/109 "2004-07-31T21:31:42Z")
> [@wring](#): > > you’re definately reading it wrong. > > I did **not** say “republicans = highly conservative” > > The **area** is “Highly conservative” > > **because** > > “roughly 60% vote republican” > > See - Roughly 60% vote republican, republican = **conservative** (not, repeat **not** “highly conservative”). Total area = 100%, 60% conservate = \*\*area ‘highly conservative’. > > Again, I will assume that you do not object to the qualification that “republican= conservative”. > > (you **will** please note, once again, that I did **not** put in “Highly conservative” when saying “republican = conservative”). > > the _ **area** _ is 'highly conservative because a “high” proportion of the voters there voted in a conservative manner. I still disagree. Since when does Republican equal conservative? In the real world, I mean, not on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Goldenchild487](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58f4c7/32.png) [@Goldenchild487](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goldenchild487)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/110 "2004-07-31T21:42:51Z")
[Letter as displayed in film](http://67.19.19.67/images/uploads/pantagraph_f911.jpg) [Letter in real life](http://www.moorewatch.com/images/uploads/pantagraph_full.jpg) Note the differences. That is beyond simply “blowing it up” so people could read it. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/111 "2004-07-31T21:45:26Z")
> [@Goldenchild487](#): > > [Letter as displayed in film](http://67.19.19.67/images/uploads/pantagraph_f911.jpg) > > [Letter in real life](http://www.moorewatch.com/images/uploads/pantagraph_full.jpg) > Note the differences. That is beyond simply “blowing it up” so people could read it. Note the difference, people. One is clearly opinion, MM’s version is presented as fact. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/112 "2004-07-31T21:58:25Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > ## Quote: Would it really have been that fucking hard to say (like several–Hi, Blowero!–did), “OK, if this is true, then Moore lied, and has lost credibility has a journalist.” > > Michael Moore’s not really a journalist in the first place, is he? I guess one could define the term broadly enough to include him, but I don’t think he’s a journalist in the traditional sense and AFAIK doesn’t bill himself as such. Not being a journalist doesn’t give one a free pass to lie all the live-long day of course, but it’s foolish to expect _journalistic_ integrity from non-journalists. Actual professional journalists often have enough trouble living up to that standard. Right. And for the record, that’s not a quote of what I said, of course. I _do_ think it’s a valid criticism of the film, but I don’t think it means that Moore has “lost credibility as a journalist”, because I don’t think he’s ever held himelf out as a journalist. Also, this point has been made, but I think bears repeating: I think it’s a stretch to say that this one criticism invalidates _everything_ Moore has ever done. A couple people said, “If we found this one lie, how many _other_ lies must there be?” But of course they’re forgetting that right-wing bloggers are no doubt scrutinizing every second of the film as we speak, trying to find errors. The fact that this is the best they can come up with so far speaks volumes. If F-911 is _truly_rife with lies and inaccuracies, I think we would have heard about it. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/113 "2004-07-31T22:07:37Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I still disagree. Since when does Republican equal conservative? In the real world, I mean, not on this board. To audience: Is he for real??? according to [ENcarta](http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761568416) in it’s discussion of the Republican party, there’s a section entitled “the Triumph of Conservatism”, saying > [@](#): > > The nomination of Senator Barry M. Goldwater in 1964 brought conservative Republicanism to a dominant place in party councils for the first time since the 1930s. The conservatives thereafter controlled the party machinery and increasingly impressed their stamp on the party’s principles and actions Bush billed himself as the “Compassionate **conservative** ” , and was the Republican Nominee for President in 2000 -you remember that, don’t you? Lives at the White house these days?? Not to mention all the Republican ads decrying KErry as the “Most liberal Senator” - to like, differentiate him from , what? lesser liberal Republican Senators? and wasnt’ it **you** who brought up that the paper involved was from a “Blue” (Ie liberal, ie democratic) state? Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/114 "2004-07-31T22:22:51Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I still disagree. Since when does Republican equal conservative? In the real world, I mean, not on this board. Well, you seem to [lump them together](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=267095&highlight=conservatives) with “But the same can be said about the lefties on this board, who go on and on about how conservatives, or tightie righties, or Repuglicans, are evil.”, so can I use you as a cite, even though you’re apparently not in the “real world?” Other cites, but you already knew this, didn’t you? [The Home of Conservative Opinion in America.](http://www.republicans.org/) [The GOP is a right-wing, conservative party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Republican_Party) Now, if you wish to argue that Bush is not a traditional conservative, I’m on your side. Of course, if you make that argument, one has to ask why you would support him, as he’s as far from the roots of conservatism as any politician I know of, including Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/115 "2004-07-31T22:25:30Z")
and apparently, the RNC is in agreement w/the SDMB that “Republicans = conservative” since in their " official catalog of REpublican merchandise", they have this [spiffy elephant pen](http://www.companycatalog.com/ProdDetail.asp?url=rnc&pid=25634) > [@](#): > > A perfect gift for the conservative-minded writer! Prediction, **milroyj** will not admit he’s wrong on this. Now, for the real fun - will he ignore the challenge, still insist that he’s correct, or, to spite me, _agree he’s wrong_. 😃 WRT: the OP itself (the post, not the poster), bad on MM for this gaff. he shouldn’t have done it. It detracts from his credibility on the rest of it. Doesn’t negate it. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/116 "2004-07-31T22:46:33Z")
As much as I hate wading into this slime, I thought I should clear something up. Here’s a list of Buena Vista’s (Disney’s) movies so far this year. **Fahrenheit 9/11** has NOT made more than all of them combined, but it’s made far more than any one of them. This list does not include **The Villiage** , opening this week, which will make at least $40 million just for the weekend alone. Rank Title Studio Total Gross / Theaters Opening / Theaters Open 22 Hidalgo BV **$67,303,450** 3,065 $18,829,435 3,063 3/05 26 Miracle BV **$64,378,093** 2,755 $19,377,577 2,605 2/06 33 Home on the Range BV **$49,921,334** 3,058 $13,880,771 3,047 4/02 35 King Arthur BV **$47,091,521** 3,086 $15,193,907 3,086 7/07 38 The Ladykillers BV **$39,700,191** 1,589 $12,634,563 1,583 3/26 40 Raising Helen BV **$36,933,714** 2,721 $10,985,597 2,717 5/28 45 Confessions of a Teenage Drama Queen BV **$29,309,763** 2,503 $9,350,572 2,503 2/20 52 Around the World in 80 Days BV **$22,866,499** 2,801 $7,576,132 2,801 53 The Alamo BV **$22,414,961** 2,609 $9,124,701 2,609 4/09 79 Teacher’s Pet BV **$6,491,969** 2,027 $2,461,252 2,027 1/16 147 America’s Heart and Soul BV **$314,402** 98 $134,939 98 7/02 7/29 Now, excuse me while I go take a shower to get the slime off my body. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/117 "2004-07-31T23:08:51Z")
So, to summarize (assuming the claims in the OP are true): 1. It is an undisputed fact that under any Florida recount standard that tabulated **all disputed votes statewide,** Gore would have won the election. See table 1 of [“Democracy Counts: The Media Consortium Florida Ballot Project”](http://www.aei.org/docLib/20040526_KeatingPaper.pdf) (PDF). 2. Michael Moore, looking for a headline to summarize this fact, took the title of a letter-to-the-editor and recat it as a newspaper headline. In other words, the headline was not a headline, but _the claim it expressed was true._ 3. Because of #2, Michael Moore is a lying poopy-pants and all of **Fahrenheit 9/11** should be discredited. :dubious: I asked this before, and I ask it again… where was this rigorous adherence to accuracy from the SDMB rightie-tighties when Bush was making all those WMD claims last year? ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/118 "2004-08-01T00:37:06Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > It’s quite amusing–there’s a chorus of liberals who _constantly_ whine about how Bush is dishonest, misleading, a liar, etc., and when one of their own gets caught in a lie, they largely refuse to recognize that fact and instead launch salvos of ad hominem attacks against the conservative posters who brought this up. This is exactly the sort of behaviour that people say the right-wing talking heads do! > > Get a fucking spine: Rhetorical integrity shouldn’t get discarded when speaking to someone who holds different political beliefs. Just illustrates another one of the major flaws of an entrenched two-party sysyem. If you’re not on one side, it’s assumed you are on the other. It’s so much easier to have a war with only one front. **Metacom** , you bring up an excellent point, but I notice a difference. The conservative dopers seem to have some embarassment when someone on their side lies. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/119 "2004-08-01T00:44:44Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I should have said “his integrity has a documentarian.” > > When I go to a documentary (as I did when I saw F911 on opening day), I expect the images that are presented to me to be real images, unless I’m told they aren’t. This is the defining characteristic of a documentary. Actually, the most compelling evaluation of F-9/11 is as a comedy. It’s quite obvious that most of the takes were set up to be a satirical comedy project. So shouldn’t we be saying that MM has lost his effectiveness as a comedian? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/120 "2004-08-01T00:45:29Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > How does the fact that the county voted for Bush 34K vs. 24K make it “highly conservative”? In your opinion, is anyone who votes Republican “highly conservative”? I lived there for three years. McLean County is highly conservative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665.md?page=7)