# Michael Moore is a liar after all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665 "2004-07-30T23:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/121 "2004-08-01T00:48:04Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > How about that recent NOVA documentary on Gamma Ray Bursters? I was shocked at how their unwillinginess to detail current theories of quantum gravity led to gross simplification of complex issues and yes, even the occasional UNTRUTH. Yes. Quite an important piece. Their lies will certainly make the universe start to disintigrate. Moore’s lies can only affect an American election. Certainly the Universe is so much more important. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/122 "2004-08-01T01:02:02Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Surely the key point is that the President has committed a series of errors which have led to thousands of deaths, immense damage to the reputation of the US and made the world a more dangerous place. > Hopefully the truth will continue to come out. **Glee** , I certainly agree with that statement. I know Dubya messed up his job. It’s even pretty obvious he used and abused the American people to one degree or another. I don’t think we have had a president lately that didn’t (maybe Eisenhower?) Thing is, it’s been pretty well demonstrated through two of his movies that Michael Moore will stoop to falisification to deliberately mislead people regarding political topics. In this he stands alone. Those who are old enough to remember the cold war know just how to classify Moore - propagandist. Yet those Moories (like Moonies) who blindly follow Moore now matter how dishonest he is, and froth at the mouth at any indication that their hero might not be telling the truth remind me most of some fundamentalist religious groups. And Michael Moore reminds me of a reverse Jack Chick. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/123 "2004-08-01T01:15:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Prediction, milroyj will not admit he’s wrong on this. He believes he is never wrong. Regardless of the cites and personal experiences. He believes it. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/124 "2004-08-01T01:23:38Z")
> [@Sinful](#): > > lol > [http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Moore+enjoying+Disney+bosses'+'comeuppance'&c=&ei=UTF-8](http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Moore+enjoying+Disney+bosses%27+%27comeuppance%27&c=&ei=UTF-8) No, this still shows his $$ vs. any ONE Disney movie. > [@](#): > > Guess who is picking the charities for Michael Moore’s doc??? > > [http://news.search.yahoo.com/search](http://news.search.yahoo.com/search)…+fahrenheit+911 and, in other news… Not Found The requested URL /search…+fahrenheit+911 was not found on this server. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/125 "2004-08-01T01:27:26Z")
> [@Goldenchild487](#): > > [Letter as displayed in film](http://67.19.19.67/images/uploads/pantagraph_f911.jpg) > > [Letter in real life](http://www.moorewatch.com/images/uploads/pantagraph_full.jpg) > Note the differences. That is beyond simply “blowing it up” so people could read it. \*\*ROTFL! Michael Moore shot himself in the foot!\*\* hee, hee, hee, hee… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/126 "2004-08-01T02:21:43Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Yes. Quite an important piece. Their lies will certainly make the universe start to disintigrate. > Moore’s lies can only affect an American election. Certainly the Universe is so much more important. Are you quite certain that you want to embrace the position that some lies are worse than others? From that viewpoint, Moore’s failing strikes me as, if not covered by legitimate artistic license, as the merest picayune trifle beside the larger lies and [misleadership](http://home.earthlink.net/~jimcapaldi/waistdep.htm) which his film does the service of exposing to the American people. You’re _much_ better off sticking to moral absolutism. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/127 "2004-08-01T03:34:37Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Are you quite certain that you want to embrace the position that some lies are worse than others? Maybe you didn’t notice that I was being sarcastic? Maybe I should have added a smilie for the criminally dense… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/128 "2004-08-01T04:12:48Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Maybe you didn’t notice that I was being sarcastic? > Maybe I should have added a smilie for the criminally dense… Pointless sarcasm will get you nowhere. If your sarcasm had a point, you’ve lost. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/129 "2004-08-01T04:25:00Z")
> [@Goldenchild487](#): > > [Letter as displayed in film](http://67.19.19.67/images/uploads/pantagraph_f911.jpg) > > [Letter in real life](http://www.moorewatch.com/images/uploads/pantagraph_full.jpg) > Note the differences. That is beyond simply “blowing it up” so people could read it. That’s it? From all this hubbub I thought that he’d at least’d made it look like it was front page headlines. Now that I’ve seen the two side by side I say, “meh.” I’ve yet to see the image in context though. But so far, meh. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/130 "2004-08-01T04:56:08Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Now that I’ve seen the two side by side I say, “meh.” Even _that_ is three letters and a period more than it’s worth. On a lighter note, a google news search on “latest florida recount shows gore won election” now returns a single result: > [@](#): > > **Indiana** Paper Hits Michael Moore for Copyright Infringement The LIARS! ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/131 "2004-08-01T07:04:39Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Pointless sarcasm will get you nowhere. > If your sarcasm had a point, you’ve lost. Sound’s like you’re saying, “Damned if I do, and Damned if I don’t” Pointless sarcasm = nowhere Sarcasm with a point = losing by any chance have you been studying under Michael Moore? Or perhaps you’re a flaming liberal? Or maybe you just want to ‘win at any cost.’ Well, this cost you your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/132 "2004-08-01T07:19:10Z")
[QOUTE=Squink]On a lighter note, a google news search on “latest florida recount shows gore won election” now returns a single result: (see below) The LIARS! [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Indiana Paper Hits Michael Moore for Copyright Infringement OK, you got some of your credibility back… ---
**Author:** ![Goldenchild487](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58f4c7/32.png) [@Goldenchild487](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goldenchild487)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/133 "2004-08-01T07:33:03Z")
This thread is a big non-issue. I’m pretty certain you guys can do better than this. A newspaper headline that DID exist, only at a slightly earlier date and in a different part of the paper and in a smaller font? Come ON! Anyway, in defence - Michael Moore was obviously trying to highlight that as early as December, there were questions as to the legitimacy of Bush’s ‘win’. The fact that a member of the general public wrote in saying that Gore would have won in the event of a recount goes a little way in adding to the credibility of the Bush electioneering claims laid out in the film (ie, it isn’t just the damn ‘liberal’ media). Now, if Moore had of flashed that page with the op-ed thing EXACTLY as it had of appeared in the paper, the fact is, you would not be able to read it. Those newspapers are FLASHED across the screen. If it wasn’t blown-up, you would wonder what in fact was written on that piece of paper that just zoomed across the screen at the speed of sound. Then there’s the distinct poissibility Michael Moore himself isn’t responsible for what really amounts to slight journalistic hyperbole at worst. So yeah. Find something else to throw a hissy-fit over. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/134 "2004-08-01T07:41:12Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > That’s it? > From all this hubbub I thought that he’d at least’d made it look like it was front page headlines. > > Now that I’ve seen the two side by side I say, “meh.” > > I’ve yet to see the image in context though. > But so far, meh. I am similarly underwhelmed. Moore would have done better not to alter the image in this way if only to avoid being called a liar, but looking at the original page I’m sure it would have looked bad onscreen. Heck, it’s not even visually appealing on my monitor. I think the decision to change the letter’s orientation (wide rather than long) and headline size could be attributed to the constraints of the medium. Movie screens are wide rather than long, and the headline needs to be large enough for people to read it quickly and easily as it’s flashed across the screen. It’s ot obvious that the headline belongs to a letter to the editor rather than a news item, but based on the photos alone I’ve got to disagree with **milroyj** ’s assertation that “One is clearly opinion, MM’s version is presented as fact”. Maybe in context it seems different ( **F 9/11** still hasn’t opened in Japan), but I see nothing in the screen shot to suggest that the headline _doesn’t_ belong to an opinion piece of some sort. As **SimonX** says, it’s not portrayed as front-page news or anything. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/135 "2004-08-01T07:59:19Z")
Wow, that’s it? I chastised Moore for that? Based on the rhetoric, I thought he took a 10 point font over a letter and made it look like a “Dewey Wins” sized headline on the frontpage. Instead, he took a title over an inside page and blew it up a few point sizes and changed the format so the other letters didn’t get in the way of the message. Color me heavily underwhelmed after this. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/136 "2004-08-01T08:10:11Z")
I agree. Now that I look at it, it doesn’t look like a headline at all. That’s NOT what the front page of a newspaper looks like. They don’t put the name of the paper in a little header at the top of the page like that; not on the front page. I can still see the point that he’s basically passing off a letter to the editor as a hard news story. But this whole thing about saying he tried to make it look like a headline - no way. If you _really_ were trying to make it look like a headline, that’s not how you would do it. It looks more like they were just trying to make it legible. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/137 "2004-08-01T08:12:59Z")
Count me in with **DMC**. The thing is that if Moore’s antagonists have to delve to this level of minutae to find an arguable deviation from the exact truth, then we can be pretty sure the rest of the film checks out. Which frankly surprises me. I mean, Michael Moore, a man with a partisan goal. I kind of expect him to bend and insinuate to some degree. If I were to go see F/911 I’d take that attitude with me. Once again I have to ask, just how stupid do r-w partisans think people are. I won’t see it though. No nudity. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/138 "2004-08-01T08:23:42Z")
Well, damnit, I don’t have time to sort through this entire train-wreck of a thread, but the OP’s point is valid. I am certainly no fan of this administration, and will be voting for Kerry as such come November, but Jesus Christ on a cracker, the mental gymnastics some people are willing to go through in this thread to support Michael Moore… it’s helping to lock up the Republican vote come 2008. The idea of a “modern documentary” or how Photoshopping photos in a documentary can somehow be acceptable becasue some other person lies, well, it’s pathetic. How about we respond to lies with truth rather than more lies? Damn, and Dubya was starting to make me think a lot of you people were smart… ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/139 "2004-08-01T10:18:56Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > The thing is that if Moore’s antagonists have to delve to this level of minutae to find an arguable deviation from the exact truth, then we can be pretty sure the rest of the film checks out. > > Which frankly surprises me. I mean, Michael Moore, a man with a partisan goal. I kind of expect him to bend and insinuate to some degree. If I were to go see F/911 I’d take that attitude with me. I’ve said in other threads that nothing has done more to convince me that Moore _isn’t_ a liar than the frequent flimsy accusations made against him. I’ve enjoyed Moore’s work since the time of “TV Nation”, but I’ve never considered him a journalist. Maybe an editorialist, but usually more of a strongly opinionated political humorist/satirist. I never expected him to be unbiased, and had no particular reason to trust the accuracy of his fact-checking…until his opponents started going over things with a fine-toothed comb. If I may indulge in a mixed metaphor, considering the mountains that have been made over molehills I’m pretty confident that there’s no fire behind the smoke. Even if someone does turn up evidence of an actual lie on Moore’s part, I’m going to be more skeptical than I would have been before the hubbub over the “lies” in **Bowling for Columbine**. His opponents have cried “LIAR!” over nothing too many times for me to buy it without pretty convincing proof. Worse than that, sometimes they’ve actually been lying themselves about the content of Moore’s movies. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665/140 "2004-08-01T13:02:10Z")
Wow, so now we have the pictures. And we know that all he did was to take the actual article, move it by their header, and eliminate the unrelated clutter on the page. Kudos to Moore on a completely ethical rework that is perfectly in line with traditional journalistic standards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-liar-after-all/257665.md?page=8)