I believe that Moore himself has state that he doesn’t really think of his films as documentaries but sort of as a cinematic equivalent of an editorial column. They are opinion pieces but they get categorized as documenaries because there is really no adequate category to put them in.
[Let the “fiction” jokes begin]
Just to reinforce what I hope was mhendo’s point (above),0 Mr. Moore’s declaration of truthfulness was drafted with nearly Decemberlike craftiness and cunning, and dishonesty—if it is a fact it is by definition true. If an assertion is untrue then it is by definition not a fact . It is nice to know that weasel wording is alive and well. We will see more of it before we are done.
As far as Frankin’s new book is concerned, some of the lies disclosed are pretty feeble, as the criticism of Secretary Rumsfeld for saying that there are stone crosses (row on row) in the Arlington Cemetery. On the broad view, however, Frankin’s book is pretty persuasive of his base proposition that the Neo-conservatives who are running the show and their running dogs consistently lie if a lie will serve their interests and that the mainline press is too cowed or too lazy to call them on the issue. Frankin’s discussion of the memorial service for Senator Wellstone is especially telling. You will recall that a fair number of our friend on these boards were especially exercised by what they saw as, or were told was, a political carnival and general disgrace. Those of our friends ought to read the book. They should take their apoplexy medicine first.
Moore is an industrial-strength idiot and asshole but nobody here dares say so because this board is run by pinko-leftist-commies, as we all know.
This has been debunked on this board by myself and others. It was humanitarian aid. Moreover, it was not “given to the Taliban.”
Long ago on this board, I once conjectured that there may have been some ‘linkage’ between the 43 mil in humanitarian aid and the drug war or something else. This is pure speculation on my part. The editorial that these ‘facts’ are based on is pure crap.
Hey, aren’t you supposed to be a Left-Wing Nazi like the entire governing body of this board? Shape up, Mister! You, too, Coldie!
signed—
The Evil Left Wing Cabal Hierarchy of the SDMB of the Anarchy Dogon a more serious note, i usually defend Moore when he gets attacked by people who don’t understand what he was saying, but i don’t think i can defend this one.
Ya know, I really gotta learn to bookmark stuff.
Sometime in the last ten days there was a link right here on the good ol’ SDMB to a very interesting website, a page of which was devoted to debinking the debunkers. It was extremely calm and well-reasoned, and made perfect sense.
Now the question is…where the hell is that friggin’ link???
That would be debunking. Although debinking kinda sounds innersting, don’t it?
Moore used to be great, he had points about the damage corporate America is doing to the “little folks” and then Moore hit it big, and he just started being pissed off for no other reason than being pissed off.
Frankly, I soured on him when Nader was running for President this last time, and I’ve seen nothing from him that’s made me reconsider.
Oh, and as someone said in the Hollywood Babylon thread
Deboinking?
Here’s that 43 million “dollars” to the Taliban back in May of 2001.
Note also, it was distributed through the UN.
Robert Scheer – the columnist who started this urban legend – and Moore are making all this up. If the money got to the Taliban they have nobody but the UN and NGOs to blame. Which I don’t think happened either. Scheer and Moore are just dangerous liars with an agenda.
To paraphrase Condi Rice, he ain’t a fact-checker.
That’s really a damn shame.
The guy has a knack for self-promotion, and he’s not afraid to make a fool of himself to get his point across.
But, in my eyes, slanting the facts via careful editing, and cooking statistics to create a false impression ain’t much different from lying.
True, Al Franken does the same thing; in his book “Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot,” he creates a fictitious interview with Limbaugh in which he uses quotes from actual Limbaugh speeches and interviews, slanted in such a way as to create the idea that Rush is a bloated, toadlike, vicious, hateful, barely sapient Republican hog-beast.
The difference here is that Franken tells us EXACTLY what he is doing before launching into his “interview.” He uses the technique in order to satirize the fact that Limbaugh did the exact same thing on his show some time earlier, WITHOUT admitting that.
And now, it would seem, we have Michael Moore doing the same stinkin’ thing.
Man, I’m disappointed. What, the horrible truth isn’t enough?
(I also found the part of the film where Moore goes around opening people’s doors kind of interesting. I live in Texas, where there are more guns than in some COUNTRIES, and I never lock my door. When I’m in the house, that is. Who locks the door when they’re HOME? But in each case we see where Moore goes up and tries a door, not only is the door unlocked, but there are people at home in the house. And this proves what?)
I pulled the number from a letter my Hubby wrote in May of 2001 protesting the Bush administration’s policies; apparently that figure was quoted in our local (Republican-leaning) daily newspaper, to which he was responding. Although of course there’s no telling where they got it from. Sheesh, even CNN.com agrees with your statement, Beagle.
I agree with Wang-Ka; I feel cheated. And I was all riled up and everything. What a raw deal.
Here’s another link on the lies and stagings in Bowling for Columbine:
It’s kind of sick really, I mean Moores’ work really meant something when he did Roger & Me, but talk about a shit spiral.
He’s hitched his wagon to the same media frenzy he rails against, and openly dares anyone to refute him. He cares no more about the everyman, than your average republican does about the environment.
Even so, that’s the thing that’s the hardest to deal with regrding MM, because he’s right out there lying, cheating and shamelessly promoting along with the rest of them. With me, his credibility hit the crapper right after his award speech.
Besides, Mike is damn sure no Jello Biafra.
I enjoyed the film. I though it was great. I absolutely HATED the K mart stunt, though.
And as was stated earlier, of course every fact was true. Every damn one. ('cause if it wasn’t true, it wasn’t a fact) If he had said every statement was true…
You had to take some stuff with a grain of salt. Like the gun death figures for other countries, contrasting them with ours. And making no mention of the contrasting population size.
I am disheartened to learn of the editing together of different speeches by Heston. There was certainly no need for that. Did he similarly edit the interview? Because Heston came off looking very bad.
There was much in the film that was thought-provoking. Especially his point about the media seeming to encourage irrational fear. I agree that his points would carry more weight without the distortions.
Actually, this is entirely accurate.
The facts in BfC are true. The parts that Moore made up, distorted, quoted out of context, and lied about, are not true.
In the same sense, the sixteen words in Bush’s speech are also completely true and accurate. British intelligence did, in fact, report what Bush said they did.
The trouble is, I don’t think either Bush or Moore meant to be self-parodying.
Oh, and Diogenes - Franken is definitely a liar. Maybe not in his book - I haven’t read it, so I couldn’t say - but Franken is an admitted liar. Did you need the cite again?
Regards,
Shodan
What, that prank again? Please. :rolleyes:
Find something false in his book and then maybe I’ll care.
I do not know if Franken is a liar but he is definitely an idiot. The title of his book about Limbaugh says it all about him.