# Michael Moore: It's the guns -- but, we all know, it's not really the guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066 "2012-12-24T22:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/21 "2012-12-25T04:37:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Moore is not the only one who makes this claim (and that, moreover, our fears _are_ deliberately manipulated for economic and political purposes), and it has a vague ring of truth. … Yet I don’t fully understand it. :dubious: > > What do Dopers think of this? Is there a webpage which explains such alleged manipulation? As a non-American, the thing that strikes me most strongly in gun control threads is how many American posters _need_ a gun for home and personal defense. I don’t know any Canadians in my own life who have ever expressed any desire for a firearm for personal defense, and I’ve seen precious little of such sentiment written in the press or generally online. And that’s not because I come from a part of Canada with no guns. I grew up on a farm on the prairies. Everyone had guns. But they were for shooting gophers and coyotes, not people. So far as I know, rates of burglary and the like are very similar between our countries. Actually I think our property crime rate is slightly higher. I’m not entirely sure what to make of those differences. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/22 "2012-12-25T04:42:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > As a non-American, the thing that strikes me most strongly in gun control threads is how many American posters _need_ a gun for home and personal defense. I don’t know any Canadians in my own life who have ever expressed any desire for a firearm for personal defense, and I’ve seen precious little of such sentiment written in the press or generally online. And that’s not because I come from a part of Canada with no guns. I grew up on a farm on the prairies. Everyone had guns. But they were for shooting gophers and coyotes, not people. > > So far as I know, rates of burglary and the like are very similar between our countries. Actually I think our property crime rate is slightly higher. > > I’m not entirely sure what to make of those differences. I doubt that most of the posters on this site are all that representative of most Americans. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/23 "2012-12-25T04:48:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Moore is not the only one who makes this claim (and that, moreover, our fears _are_ deliberately manipulated for economic and political purposes), and it has a vague ring of truth. … Yet I don’t fully understand it. :dubious: It’s difficult to precisely pin a stat on this, and yet it really seems that way to me, a (mostly) foreigner. Americans are a very frightened people - they’re brave and industrious and smart and wonderful in a thousand ways, and yet you seem to be inherently, culturally scared. I don’t think it’s always been that way, but it is now. I always remark to myself when I travel in the USA how much fearmongering there is in the media; every news show is about things that will kill you, people out to get you, foreigners planning dirty deeds. The U.S. cycles through bogeymen; right now it’s sort of Iran but also sort of China, depending on what happened this news cycle. (The underlying terror with which China is viewed is, frankly, baffling; look at how people lost their shit when China managed to land one jet on an aircraft carrier.) The guns thing is part of it, I guess; the idea of having guns all around your house, so that there’s one at hand if an intruder storms in, seems comically silly to me and yet several Americans here on the SDMB have said they do precisely that - and this is a left-leaning, granola-munching sample of Americans. But that’s really just one thing among many. Again, this is just my impression, but it’s a very strong one. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/24 "2012-12-25T04:48:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I doubt that most of the posters on this site are all that representative of most Americans. Really? Any political thread people are on about how liberal the board is, so in that sense I’d agree it isn’t entirely representative. But that would suggest that most Americans are even more in need of firearms for personal defense, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/25 "2012-12-25T04:49:30Z")
Guns don’t kill people, … oh wait. Yes in fact they [do](http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/death-innocents-murder-and-guns-usa). They do kill people. > [@](#): > > The per capita mortality from handguns in the USA is 4.6 times that of its closest contender, Israel; 23 times that of Canada, and 265 times that of Great Britain. Are Americans 23 times as homicidal by nature as Canadians, or 265 times as homicidal as Brits? Of course not. The factor that differentiates these societies is that handguns are very strictly regulated (and generally unavailable to civilians) in both Canada and Great Britain, whereas they are easily available in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/26 "2012-12-25T04:49:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I doubt that most of the posters on this site are all that representative of most Americans. No, we’re not; as has often been pointed out, we’re **leftier.** Consider what that says about the majority. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/27 "2012-12-25T04:52:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > As a non-American, the thing that strikes me most strongly in gun control threads is how many American posters _need_ a gun for home and personal defense. What you need to understand is that for many, “home and personal defense” is a euphemism for “I want to be prepared to shoot the police if necessary.” I doubt that attitude is very widespread in Canada, or anywhere else in the industrialized world. It’s the basis for what is known as the “insurrectionary theory” of the Second Amendment, the idea that the “militia” is meant to be, not an arm of the state, but a countervailing popular force against it. If you ever see an NRA poster saying “All agree gun control is a good idea!” and showing the faces of famous dictators, that’s what they mean by it. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/28 "2012-12-25T04:56:19Z")
Just as a point of order, it’s not really that difficult to get a handgun in Canada. There’s a bunch of nuisance paperwork, but it’s not actually hard to do. There are also a bunch of rules about storage and transportation. But pretty much anyone who really wants one can legally obtain a handgun. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/29 "2012-12-25T04:58:14Z")
And I might add that our hand gun murder rates in Canada would be similar to the UK, except for all the illegal hand guns smuggled over the boarder into Canada from the US. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/30 "2012-12-25T04:59:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then you should have paid more attention, because he doesn’t blame poverty but cultural attitudes. > > Admittedly he does by blatantly lying to his audience. > > Moore is basically Chomsky for people who don’t like to read. And how is Chomsky a liar? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/31 "2012-12-25T05:01:40Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And I might add that our hand gun murder rates in Canada would be similar the the UK, except for all the illegal hand guns smuggled over the boarder into Canada from the US. > > Thanks. If the U.S. did not exist, you’d have a border with Mexico. Think you’d like that any better? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/32 "2012-12-25T05:03:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the U.S. did not exist, you’d have a border with Mexico. Think you’d like that any better? 😉 I dunno. Would there be cheap tequila and hot chicks? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/33 "2012-12-25T05:13:17Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I dunno. Would there be cheap tequila and hot chicks? No, there would be hot tequila and cheap chicks. Which is better, all around. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/34 "2012-12-25T05:32:54Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Just as a point of order, it’s not really that difficult to get a handgun in Canada. There’s a bunch of nuisance paperwork, but it’s not actually hard to do. There are also a bunch of rules about storage and transportation. But pretty much anyone who really wants one can legally obtain a handgun. Ya, but: [STORAGE OF RESTRICTED FIREARMS](http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/FullText.html) > [@](#): > > 1. An individual may store a restricted firearm only if ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/35 "2012-12-25T05:41:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, we’re not; as has often been pointed out, we’re **leftier.** Consider what that says about the majority. We are a fairly libertarian leaning left. Also, gun control threads are boring and repetitive, its a lot like the abortion argument, or the theism thing. And there isn’t any reason to pop into a thread to say “gee, I don’t have guns and really don’t feel the loss of not having guns in my house.” Or “I do have guns, but its a shotgun for shooting grouse and a deer rifle.” So gun control threads tend to be an echo chamber of people who really want their guns. Which leaves the impression to non-Americans that we are armed to the teeth. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/36 "2012-12-25T05:43:44Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > We are a fairly libertarian leaning left. Also, gun control threads are boring and repetitive, its a lot like the abortion argument, or the theism thing. And there isn’t any reason to pop into a thread to say “gee, I don’t have guns and really don’t feel the loss of not having guns in my house.” Or “I do have guns, but its a shotgun for shooting grouse and a deer rifle.” So gun control threads tend to be an echo chamber of people who really want their guns. Which leaves the impression to non-Americans that we are armed to the teeth. By non-American First World standards, we **are** armed to the teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/37 "2012-12-25T05:55:12Z")
The US seems to lag behind other western cultures. Racial integration. Gay marriage. Marijuana. Health care. I guess gun control is the next item on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/38 "2012-12-25T06:45:37Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The US seems to lag behind other western cultures. > > Racial integration. > Gay marriage. > Marijuana. > Health care. > > I guess gun control is the next item on the list. Most western countries don’t allow gay marriage anywhere in their countries while it is legal in many states for gays to get married. As for “racial integration”, well, talk to Muslims in Europe and ask them what they think. The US certainly has problems with racism and I’ve been very critical of it, but it’s utterly asinine to assume that France, Italy, Germany, the UK, Israel and other western nations don’t have comparable if not worse problems. I would certainly love it if the UK had a ethnic Pakistani Prime Minister, France had an Algerian Premier, and Germany had a Turkish Prime Minister, but I doubt we’ll see any such thing anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/39 "2012-12-25T08:31:52Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The US seems to lag behind other western cultures. > > Racial integration. > Gay marriage. > Marijuana. > Health care. > > I guess gun control is the next item on the list. Please identify a country with greater racial integration than the USA. Gay Marriage? More Americans are able to enter into same sex marriages than Canadians. Marijuana? More Americans can freely obtain medical marijuana than Canadians. More Americans can grow their own marijuana and keep an ounce or less on them without fear of prosecution than Canadians. Health Care? Everyone will have health insurance after 2014. The USA is responsible for most of the world’s medical advances. I guess it’s just gun control then. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/40 "2012-12-25T08:42:10Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I guess it’s just gun control then. No, actually, poverty control would be better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=3)