# Michael Moore: It's the guns -- but, we all know, it's not really the guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066 "2012-12-24T22:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/61 "2012-12-25T21:41:27Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > That’s the bad Black and Decker user. What about all the good users. we must remove their freewill, and whatever means they might have to blow leaves should they mal-function: rakes, everything… we cannot run the risk of them making a bad moral choice, so moral choices should be banned as well… ‘do as you are told; operate as you are programmed’… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/62 "2012-12-26T02:24:09Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Both are good. Yet do you think if we get our rates of poverty down to the level of a country like Germany or Canada we will suddenly have matching violent crime rates committed with firearms or do you suspect that we’ll need some good gun control along with it? Probably the latter; but, even without gun control, less poverty would mean less gun crime. (Less nonviolent crime, too.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/63 "2012-12-26T02:28:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What’s weird is, even in the USA, this doesn’t work. There are police officers that have raped citizens, and quite a few that used excessive force, some that have shot citizens unprovoked. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard as a serious suggestion that the way to deal with that is by opening fire on a cop. I suspect even brandishing a weapon at a dirty cop would be a quick ride to lockup and the end of your life as a free citizen. [shrug] If you have actual proof a copy is dirty, there are always legal and nonviolent things you can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/64 "2012-12-26T02:30:32Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > 30 people die in the US everyday in alcohol related deaths…DUI accidents/ liver failure, ect… > and i hear no out-cry to reinstate prohibition.[?] (not like it ever stopped anyone from drinking anyways) The difference is that we know gun-prohibition **does** work. Many countries do it very effectively. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/65 "2012-12-26T02:32:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, gramps 🙂 , when I was growing up, mostly what I saw in the newspapers was stories about racial riots and then student protest/riots. The murder rate, btw, has been steadily declining since it’s peak in about 1991 and is now less than half what it was then. The murder rate, and the crime rate generally, has been declining due to more effective and strict law enforcement. The price we pay for that is the world’s largest incarcerated population relative to the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/66 "2012-12-26T02:32:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Probably the latter; but, even without gun control, less poverty would mean less gun crime. (Less nonviolent crime, too.) The reasons for crime are rather complex and ascribing it to “poverty” as you are doing is extremely simplistic and ignores history. You’ll notice that there was vastly more poverty in the 1920s and 1930s yet there was vastly less violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/67 "2012-12-26T05:50:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The reasons for crime are rather complex and ascribing it to “poverty” as you are doing is extremely simplistic and ignores history. > > You’ll notice that there was vastly more poverty in the 1920s and 1930s yet there was vastly less violent crime. And there was significantly less gun control in place in the US as well. Anyone could even own a machine gun until 1934. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/68 "2012-12-26T07:49:32Z")
Society in 2012 is just like the 1930s - is that the basis of the argument? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/69 "2012-12-26T07:56:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The reasons for crime are rather complex and ascribing it to “poverty” as you are doing is extremely simplistic and ignores history. :dubious: Not nearly so much as discounting “poverty” would be. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/70 "2012-12-26T08:03:52Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > And there was significantly less gun control in place in the US as well. Anyone could even own a machine gun until 1934. But not everyone could afford one in 1934, when the economy was in deflationary spiral. There are a couple of apparent digressions this could take: Were machine guns restricted in the Great Depression to quell revolutionary and/or counter-revolutionary violence? What about the ability of the median-income person to buy a tommy-gun in the 1920’s, pre-crash? Were most people still priced out? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/71 "2012-12-26T11:53:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s difficult to precisely pin a stat on this, and yet it really seems that way to me, a (mostly) foreigner. Americans are a very frightened people - they’re brave and industrious and smart and wonderful in a thousand ways, and yet you seem to be inherently, culturally scared. I don’t think it’s always been that way, but it is now. I always remark to myself when I travel in the USA how much fearmongering there is in the media; every news show is about things that will kill you, people out to get you, foreigners planning dirty deeds. The U.S. cycles through bogeymen; right now it’s sort of Iran but also sort of China… > > The guns thing is part of it, I guess; the idea of having guns all around your house, so that there’s one at hand if an intruder storms in, seems comically silly… > > Again, this is just my impression, but it’s a very strong one. YMMV. Excellent post, IMHO. I’m a natural-born US citizen, and my wife is a naturalized one, and we both agree completely with every word. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/72 "2012-12-26T12:48:19Z")
Sadly there have been killings all through history,even going back to the OT story of Cain and Able; many of the killings in the OT after that was to get land, whole towns of people were killed because they believed God wanted them to have the land of others. Years ago the news didn’t spread as it does now, there were killings that some never heard of. Not all were killed by guns, but having the type of guns we have now it is just easier for some one with a mental problem to kill more at once. Then there is Tim Mcveigh and friends who used home made bombs. The terrorists believe they have a God given right (in many cases) to kill hundreds of innocent people because they are angry with a government. I wish it were possible to spend the money we spend(world wide) fighting crime to find the reason why some people kill others, especially those who they don’t even know. I doubt that will happen in our century, if ever. Imagine the money that we spend on fighting Crime and in wars if it were spent on aiding or/teaching people how to live in peace with others,to start when a child is born to see the good in others,I believe this is an impossible task but worth trying? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/73 "2012-12-26T15:01:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Makes sense to me. What other explanation – or solution – could there be? Michael Moore is a blithering idiot who hates America. What other explanation – or solution – could there be? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/74 "2012-12-26T15:05:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Michael Moore is a blithering idiot who hates America. What other explanation – or solution – could there be? Okay, let’s stipulate that Michael Moore hates America. Now, what explanation do you have for why Americans kill each other at much higher rates than other wealthy western nations? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/75 "2012-12-26T15:09:40Z")
Exceptionalism, of course. That fav. back stop. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/76 "2012-12-26T15:10:24Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Okay, let’s stipulate that Michael Moore hates America. > > Now, what explanation do you have for why Americans kill each other at much higher rates than other wealthy western nations? Who has the pareto chart of causes? That’s the first thing I’d look at if I were charged with tackling this problem. My google-fu didn’t produce anything. But without such data, I think we’re poking around in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/77 "2012-12-26T16:22:26Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The US seems to lag behind other western cultures. > > Racial integration. > Gay marriage. > Marijuana. > Health care. > > I guess gun control is the next item on the list. Actually, we are not so much lagging behind the other First World countries as drifting toward the Third World countries. Our conservatives and libertarians seem to aspire to us becoming Somalia. (Widespread gun use, enormous gap beetween the wealthy and everyone else, becoming a failed state (see: secession petitions). ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/78 "2012-12-26T17:42:37Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > It is far harder to deal with the inequalities of opportunity in the US, we in the UK can’t do it either but in truth there has to be something worthwhile for everyone in society to reach for- or the disenfranchised will use whatever means are at their disposal, and in the US that means handguns. If “the disenfranchised” were routinely murdering the wealthy, this might be relevant. But of course, they only murder each other. It’s about the rotten core of honor culture, not guns and not economics. Crime has gone down in the recession, you know. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/79 "2012-12-26T18:47:22Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Michael Moore is a blithering idiot who hates America. What other explanation – or solution – could there be? Anyone who thinks Michael Moore hates America doesn’t understand Michael Moore, or for that matter America. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/80 "2012-12-26T18:52:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The reasons for crime are rather complex and ascribing it to “poverty” as you are doing is extremely simplistic and ignores history. > > You’ll notice that there was vastly more poverty in the 1920s and 1930s yet there was vastly less violent crime. I’m not going to argue the causes of general crime rates because everyone has their own pet theories, but I’ve never heard it claimed that the 20s/30s had less violent crime compared to today, nor can I find any sites saying anything like that (especially not “vastly”). Every site I can find says it was higher or about the same compared to today before falling during the 40s-60s and then rising again to a peak in the early 90s before plummeting, e.g. [here.](http://books.google.com/books?id=genwuDwRP4IC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=homicides+per+100,000+united+states+20th+century&source=bl&ots=s8EhY5BX3t&sig=VNBPTB2D6eKQxmKCCNpDe7nX738&hl=en#v=onepage&q=homicides%20per%20100%2C000%20united%20states%2020th%20century&f=false) Picking the 20s/30s seems an odd choice given the proliferation of organized crime. As for the general threads here lately re: guns, it seems there’s a disconnect. Presumably we’re talking about this because of headline grabbing spree shootings, yet many of these supposed causes didn’t seem to be at play. These people seem to be disturbed young white men who don’t seem to be particularly poor or disadvantaged, other than needing psychiatric care. They aren’t targeting minorities or their allies. There don’t seem to be any politics involved, as far as I can see. Seems to me they just snap one day, grab a gun, and kill a bunch of strangers so as to go out in a blaze of glory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=5)