# Michael Moore: It's the guns -- but, we all know, it's not really the guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066 "2012-12-24T22:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/122 "2012-12-28T01:20:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Charles Whitman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman#Sniper_in_the_tower) murdered 14 people and wounded 32 using a bolt-action rifle, a shotgun, and a knife. Yeah. So? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/123 "2012-12-28T01:28:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve now asked this question three times on the SDMB, directly to people who made the claim that “well, you can kill with a knife too.” It’s never been answered. I’m reminded of the line from The Untouchables where Sean Connery’s character says to one of Al Capone’s henchmen “Just like a wop. Bringing a knife to a gunfight.” The pro-gun crowd, were one to follow their logic would be arguing that Connery’s line makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/124 "2012-12-28T01:45:54Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > What do our resident constitutional scholars say about this? Would confiscation pass 2nd amendment muster? If not, is it feasible to get rid of the 2nd amendment? > > If no to both, then what is the rational source for the fear of confiscation? Given how hard (by design) amending the Constitution is, I’d say that flatly overturning the 2nd isn’t going to happen when 3/4 of the states would have to ratify the change. Confiscation being struck down as unconstitutional is more uncertain. If the SCOTUS heard such a case today it would probably be struck down 5-4. But have some judges retire and be replaced- then who knows? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/125 "2012-12-28T03:13:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m reminded of the line from The Untouchables where Sean Connery’s character says to one of Al Capone’s henchmen “Just like a wop. Bringing a knife to a gunfight.” Yeah, but consider how **he** ends up . . . ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/126 "2012-12-28T03:17:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve now asked this question three times on the SDMB, directly to people who made the claim that “well, you can kill with a knife too.” It’s never been answered. Because the other side (armies) uses guns too? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/127 "2012-12-28T03:20:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeah, but consider how **he** ends up . . . Killed by shotgun. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/128 "2012-12-28T03:31:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve now asked this question three times on the SDMB, directly to people who made the claim that “well, you can kill with a knife too.” It’s never been answered. armies tend to shoot people from a distance too, how many murders do you think are from more than 10 yards away? But really this type of question is silly and irrelivent as the number of knife and bludgening murders are higher the number of rifle murders. Cite: [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/129 "2012-12-28T04:13:27Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well I’ve noticed the pro gun crowd has been cherry-picking the questions they’ll answer. Clearly, they have nothing to respond with on this one, so avoiding it is a lot easier than conceding on it. I don’t expect them to come up with answers on my other points, either. WRT an acceptable level of casualties for children or adults in exchange for the easy availability of guns, there’s really not an answer they can make that will win them any converts among those who are not committed to their viewpoint already, though on the evidence, 10,000 people of varying ages killed is hunky-dory with them, so I expect further silence on this issue as well. Just so this isn’t lost in the talk becasue I responed to another post. Knives are jused to kill lots of people, actually far more than rifles and shotguns. Cite: [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8) As for the Ad Hominem attack about pro-2nd people thinking 10,000 people a year being killed is “honky-dory” it is worthless for debate purposes and only serves to show how weak your position is. Please provide any cite that shows any gun control legislation which restrected access to firearms by lawful adults that had any impact on the murder rate. I am not claiming that the presance of guns reduces crime but your false dilemma is nothing but a destracton from the debate. Note most of those murders are not some John or Jane Doe with a clean record going out and offing the boss because he used the last role of toilet paper. The majority of them are related to gang or orginized crime and if you outlawed 100% all guns for sale in the US their number would not go down to zero if it dropped at all. But I’m sure you can back up your vitriolic arguments with some data? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/130 "2012-12-28T05:02:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve now asked this question three times on the SDMB, directly to people who made the claim that “well, you can kill with a knife too.” It’s never been answered. ok. I have an axe. I have a chainsaw. If I need to cut down a tree I’m going to use a chainsaw. Taking away the chainsaw will not prevent me from cutting down the tree if I am determined to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/131 "2012-12-28T05:04:49Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please provide any cite that shows any gun control legislation which restrected access to firearms by lawful adults that had any impact on the murder rate. Australia enacted strong gun control legislation coupled with a buyback program which led to huge drops in homicides, suicides and firearms-mediated crime such as robbery in just 10 years: [Comprehensive gun control works](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2012/1224/Could-the-US-learn-from-Australia-s-gun-control-laws). They did not see an increase in homicides by other means, like knives, for instance. Since that one is cited too much these days, here’s a study from Austria demonstrating that the kinds of obvious reforms for those who seek to purchase handguns, semi-automatic and repeating firearms such as psychological testing, 21 years of age and background checks resulted in a decline of suicides and homicides by firearm: [Really, gun control works; just don’t water it down.](http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/191/3/253.long) > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …if you outlawed 100% all guns for sale in the US their number would not go down to zero if it dropped at all Nobody is expecting the rate of homicides by firearm to drop to zero. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/132 "2012-12-28T05:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=rat avatar;15838202 But really this type of question is silly and irrelivent as the number of knife and bludgening murders are higher the number of rifle murders.[/QUOTE] Considering that rifle murders are utterly dwarfed by the number of murders by handgun I’m not sure the point of this argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/133 "2012-12-28T05:06:42Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > ok. > > I have an axe. I have a chainsaw. If I need to cut down a tree I’m going to use a chainsaw. Taking away the chainsaw will not prevent me from cutting down the tree if I am determined to do so. I take it that you think that was a moronic line from The Untouchables when Sean Connery taunts a Mafia thug for “bringing a knife to a gunfight” since presumably having a knife but no gun doesn’t prevent one from killing. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/134 "2012-12-28T05:10:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > 1. Since 10,000 people a year murdered with guns is an acceptable price to pay for the widespread availablity of guns, what number of people in general … not just children … would faze you. 10,000 fazes me, but then, I have little interest in playing with guns. > > . 80000 people a year die in alcohol related deaths in the US. Does that faze you? Why aren’t you demanding alcohol control? I have no interesting playing with booze, but I still don’t think outlawing beer is the answer ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/135 "2012-12-28T05:21:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that rifle murders are utterly dwarfed by the number of murders by handgun I’m not sure the point of this argument. Due to this argument. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You may say that the number is irrelevant, as guns have nothing to do with the murder rate, that a madman with a car or a knife is just as dangerous as one with a gun. If so, I ask you: why do we arm soldiers with guns and not cars or knives? We USED to arm them with spears and large knives, i.e., swords. But we stopped, when we had gun technology. Perhaps you can explain why that does not prove that guns are by far the most effective tool for killing people. We don’t arm most soliders with handguns so it is irrelevent to his claim. It also doesn’t fit with the hyperbole claim that gun owners don’t care about those who are murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/136 "2012-12-28T05:27:40Z")
Wow. You guys are lost. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/137 "2012-12-28T05:47:07Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Guns don’t kill people, … oh wait. Yes in fact they [do](http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/death-innocents-murder-and-guns-usa). They do kill people. The Swiss have lots of handguns. they don’t kill a lot of people with them. Yes, Americans are more homicidal than the Swiss. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/138 "2012-12-28T05:52:56Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > The Swiss have lots of handguns. they don’t kill a lot of people with them. Yes, Americans are more homicidal than the Swiss. Are you sure the Swiss have “lots of handguns”. Yes, reservists in Switzerland are required to keep their assault rifles at their homes, though they’re prohibited from having ammunition for their rifles at home, but I’ve never heard such claims about handguns. Do you have a cite for your claim RE handguns. Also, even if you’re right, there’s a huge difference between allowing military reservists to keep handguns in their home versus ordinary civilians. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/139 "2012-12-28T05:53:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I take it that you think that was a moronic line from The Untouchables when Sean Connery taunts a Mafia thug for “bringing a knife to a gunfight” since presumably having a knife but no gun doesn’t prevent one from killing. Of course not. Why would it be? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/140 "2012-12-28T05:54:42Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > The Swiss have lots of handguns. they don’t kill a lot of people with them. Yes, Americans are more homicidal than the Swiss. [Yeah.](http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/death-innocents-murder-and-guns-usa) > [@](#): > > Swiss society and culture are, however, very different from American, and furthermore somewhere in the vicinity of half of the firearms in the country are army-issued property. > > Moreover, virtually all of these guns are now kept (since 2007) without ammunition. Only approximately 2,000 special rapid deployment units and the military police have ammunition stored at home. Thus, of some 640,000 military long guns and handguns in service in the country, only some 0.3 % of these weapons stored at home actually have ammunition and could be fired. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/141 "2012-12-28T06:00:26Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > [Yeah.](http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/death-innocents-murder-and-guns-usa) Yes, lots of them are military issued. they still have large private ownership of weapons. > [@](#): > > In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or “selective fire”) stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.[7] > > In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the USA.[8] > **[Firearms regulation in Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland)** > > Firearms regulation in Switzerland allows the acquisition of semi-automatic, and – with a may-issue permit – fully automatic firearms, by Swiss citizens and foreigners with or without permanent residence.\[note 1\] The laws pertaining to the acquisition of firearms in Switzerland are amongst the most liberal in the world, as well as being the most permissive in Europe. Swiss gun laws are primarily about the acquisition of arms, and not ownership. As such a license is not required to own a gun T... And the government no longer sends ammunition home with the assault rifle they issue you, but you can buy it at a discount because it’s subsidized by the government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=8)