# Michael Moore: It's the guns -- but, we all know, it's not really the guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066 "2012-12-24T22:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/142 "2012-12-28T06:11:12Z")
Looks like a mixed bag of statistics. I’m unable to deduce what percentage of guns are attributable to government versus private ownership, and whether ammunition is available or not and and at what cost. Anyway. Keep on Rockin’ in the Free World. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/143 "2012-12-28T06:15:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you sure the Swiss have “lots of handguns”. > > Yes, reservists in Switzerland are required to keep their assault rifles at their homes, though they’re prohibited from having ammunition for their rifles at home, but I’ve never heard such claims about handguns. > > Do you have a cite for your claim RE handguns. > > Also, even if you’re right, there’s a huge difference between allowing military reservists to keep handguns in their home versus ordinary civilians. See the cite above. Target shooting is a popular sport in Switzerland, we’re not talking about reservists. and it isn’t that they are prohibited from having ammunition, it’s that the government long longer issues it. They have guns stores, they can buy it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/144 "2012-12-28T06:23:17Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Looks like a mixed bag of statistics. I’m unable to deduce what percentage of guns are attributable to government versus private ownership, and whether ammunition is available or not and and at what cost. > > Anyway. Keep on Rockin’ in the Free World. You can still buy ammo for your goverment issued firearm you just don’t get 50 rounds of sealed tracked ammo. Like it says there a weapon acquisition permit is required but is given if you meet simialar requriements as the instant background check does in the US. But to be fair if you look at homicide rates by state several of the US states get close to most of Europes rates. Hawaii, Iowa, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont all are in the UK/West Europe type rates per capita and my home state of Washington is similar to Finland’s rate. The South is much much higher. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/145 "2012-12-28T06:23:29Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Looks like a mixed bag of statistics. I’m unable to deduce what percentage of guns are attributable to government versus private ownership, and whether ammunition is available or not and and at what cost. > > Anyway. Keep on Rockin’ in the Free World. > **[Gun Factory](https://www.gunfactory.ch/index.htm)** > > Gun Factory Rudolfstetten AG, Pistolen und Gewehre, Munition und Waffenzubehör Appears to be a gun store in Switzerland, they list prices, but don’t speak the language. if you click on the cartridge icon on the left, you can find ammo for an assault rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/146 "2012-12-28T06:29:46Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > [Gun Factory](https://www.gunfactory.ch/index.htm) > > Appears to be a gun store in Switzerland, they list prices, but don’t speak the language. if you click on the cartridge icon on the left, you can find ammo for an assault rifle. So? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/147 "2012-12-28T06:32:37Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > So? you said: > [@](#): > > I’m unable to deduce … whether ammunition is available or not and and at what cost. I posted a link showing that it is available and at what cost. Just trying to be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/148 "2012-12-28T06:54:01Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > See the cite above. Target shooting is a popular sport in Switzerland, we’re not talking about reservists. and it isn’t that they are prohibited from having ammunition, it’s that the government long longer issues it. They have guns stores, they can buy it. Please quote where it shows that the Swiss have on a per capita basis as many “handguns” as the US. You didn’t make claims about “guns”, you made them about “handguns”. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/149 "2012-12-28T08:50:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please quote where it shows that the Swiss have on a per capita basis as many “handguns” as the US. > > You didn’t make claims about “guns”, you made them about “handguns”. Please quote where I said they have as many as the US. I never said that, they don’t. I said they have lots of handguns, and they do. They are readily available for purchase there. From the above cite: > [@](#): > > In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/150 "2012-12-28T12:50:04Z")
Sadly all through human history killing others never solved a problem (just a temporary thing) People spend more dollars and time trying to destroy others and what does it gain society, or themselves? It seems it just stirs up the need for bigger or stronger weapons. We have come from (possibly) a rock, to Atomic or hydrogen weapons, that can destroy most of the whole world. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/151 "2012-12-28T13:38:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > \<…\> there’s a huge difference between allowing military reservists to keep handguns in their home versus ordinary civilians. Uh, in Switzerland they’re one and the same. Ditto Israel. If having some basic training is enough to turn [snark]imbecilically incompetent and unstable civilians into coolly professional warriors trustworthy with guns[/snark], then maybe the answer is to have universal military training. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/152 "2012-12-29T04:04:52Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > ok. > > I have an axe. I have a chainsaw. If I need to cut down a tree I’m going to use a chainsaw. Taking away the chainsaw will not prevent me from cutting down the tree if I am determined to do so. It’s sure as hell going to reduce the number of trees you can cut down in a given period of time. And if trees could run away, well, actually, it might make a difference. I’ll answer my own question; the reason we arm soldiers with firearms instead of knives is that it is much easier to kill people with firearms than it is with knives. ---
**Author:** ![Dude\_Duderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea5d25/32.png) [@Dude\_Duderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dude_Duderson)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066/153 "2012-12-30T15:57:47Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > As a non-American, the thing that strikes me most strongly in gun control threads is how many American posters _need_ a gun for home and personal defense. I don’t know any Canadians in my own life who have ever expressed any desire for a firearm for personal defense, and I’ve seen precious little of such sentiment written in the press or generally online. And that’s not because I come from a part of Canada with no guns. I grew up on a farm on the prairies. Everyone had guns. But they were for shooting gophers and coyotes, not people. > > So far as I know, rates of burglary and the like are very similar between our countries. Actually I think our property crime rate is slightly higher. > > I’m not entirely sure what to make of those differences. Just browing through this, thought I needed to respond. What is also important to note in Canada, is that in the case of restricted firearms (ie handguns / AR platform / other “scary” looking firearms) you are legally prohibited from acquiring a firearm for self defense purposes. Meaning if you try to get an RPAL, the Firearms Centre / CFO will only allow you to get said license if you say it is for Target Practice purposes. Well, to be more accurate, you are prohibited from getting a Restricted Firearms license for self defense purposes. Ah wait, to be totally accurate, for all intents and purposes you are stopped from getting a restricted licence and firearm for self defense because authorizations to carry are almost never issued. Does that mean people don’t own firearms for self defense? No way. Having lived in both rural and urban communities, people tailor their answer depending on their audience. There are plenty of people in Canada, who despite all safe storage laws, sleep with a handgun nearby. They also have rifles in the bedroom, shotguns by the backdoor etc etc. This information is out there, but you are correct, the media does not like to spread the idea that many Canadians have and use firearms for self defense. Hell, even defense against animals is increasingly seen as too icky for alot of media types. I specifically recall seeing a CBC news clip about a man who protected his friend from a bear by shooting it. The CBC editting job actually skipped the part where he got his rifle and shot the bear. It went something like this: “With the bear mauling his friend, Mr. Smith took action.” “-So I ran into my camp to get my rifle _SNIP’_” “Mr.Jones is extremely grateful to Mr.Smith for probably saving his life”. Again it’s not peer reviewed evidence but I recently read through : “A New Kind of Monster” a book about Russel Williams the former colonel turned sex/serial killer, and it specifially mentions multiple people in the community of Tweed who had stated they had slept with handguns under their pillow, or loaded up their shotguns and kept them beside their bed when the break in spree started. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-its-the-guns-but-we-all-know-its-not-really-the-guns/645066.md?page=7)