Michael Moore: It's the guns -- but, we all know, it's not really the guns

I think a lot of it comes down to a style of politics, but not the great big presidential levels, although this too shows some of the same symptoms.

I know exactly what arguments will be set against the points I am going to make, but think about it.

Go to any first world country and look at what posts you are eligible to vote for,

I remember seeing a thread in this matter, and it was noteworthy just how many officials are voted into office in the US compared to pretty much everywhere else.

In the UK we vote for our Members of Parliament, local council, Euro Parliament Members, perhaps our City Mayor in a few places and also our local Police Commissioners - and that’s it, at the maximum and its frequently less.

For many of those officials, the vote turnout is incredibly low, sometime less than 10%, and for the largely completely unwanted Police Commissioners even less than that - for most of our population we think that it is better to have professionals carrying out many of the roles that US citizens vote in office, including public prosecutors, the idea that these functions should become politicised is most unwelcome

Who wants an third rate political rabble rousing amateur in pace instead of a person who has spent their whole career as a professional and has worked perhaps decades to attain their role through merit (though sometimes one does wonder if its a case of ‘jobs for the boys’)

Hell we don’t even vote directly for our Prime Minister.

So why do I think the US population is easily scampered into hasty decisions, they seem to be used to making electoral choices?

Well remember that phrase about ‘third rate political rabble rousing amateurs’ - how do you get folk to vote for you? What you do is hype up and pump up serious but numerically few incidents into an apocalyptic vision of the collapse of society.
You get right off your trolleys about such utter nonsensical stuff that has been completely blown up out of all proportion, and getting the electorate worried is what its all about, get lots of negative and sensationalist campaigning done, and because there is a vote almost every other month, the hype has to be maintained by the next third rate rabble rouser.

Add to this atmosphere of Christian religious extremism always ready to sell the vote of their congregation to whoever is seen to be the moral aspect of public political life and you can see why the US population can be scampered off into the sheep pens.

Gun control falls fair and square into the remit of the US scaremongers, who posit the threat to ‘democracy’ or social order - and the ever diligent US citizen is engineered into believing they must have guns to counter the guns that everyone else has. What we have in the gun control debate is MAD in the living rooms, kitchens and lobbies of our own homes.

It just would not do for the average US citizen to feel safe and comfortable, just how would you get the funding for the military, for wars around the world, and for every president to portray themselves as being firm, tough and all that stuff.

It is far harder to deal with the inequalities of opportunity in the US, we in the UK can’t do it either but in truth there has to be something worthwhile for everyone in society to reach for- or the disenfranchised will use whatever means are at their disposal, and in the US that means handguns.

Maybe in the US you have more democracy than you can handle.

Both are good. Yet do you think if we get our rates of poverty down to the level of a country like Germany or Canada we will suddenly have matching violent crime rates committed with firearms or do you suspect that we’ll need some good gun control along with it?

What’s weird is, even in the USA, this doesn’t work. There are police officers that have raped citizens, and quite a few that used excessive force, some that have shot citizens unprovoked. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard as a serious suggestion that the way to deal with that is by opening fire on a cop. I suspect even brandishing a weapon at a dirty cop would be a quick ride to lockup and the end of your life as a free citizen.

I think both Canada and Mexico would be relieved to be rid of the–what is the world for a country that aggressively exports firearms? A munitions state?–between them.

Certainly, the “we” is faux. He doesn’t see himself as part of what he’s describing.

It’s part of being a very large and generally inward-focused culture. Canada, by contrast, doesn’t need to cycle through bogeymen because it has a gigantic bogeyman/irritant/butt of jokes that never changes, to the south.

Er… in terms of total numbers? Well, yes, you have more people. In percentage terms, though, it’s very difficult to exceed 100%.

I was just offering a different perspective. It’s a more herculean task to change the attitudes of the 311 million people in my country than the 34 million in yours (nevermind that only a majority need be on board).

Regardless, isn’t it more important that more people in the world can opt to have same sex marriage? It’s great that Iceland allows same-sex marriage, but isn’t it a much greater accomplishment that New York state allows same-sex marriage?

Legal recognition of same-sex marriage is a very recent phenomenon in the modern world, and the USA, particularly the USA’s breadbasket of freedom - the Northeast - has been on the cutting edge of it.

Does this quote somehow disprove my post?

When I went to Arizona a couple of years ago, I couldn’t believe what the news was like. It was actually really shocking - every story was about someone’s trying to kill you or do a home invasion or a terrorist wants to blow something up. I found the newscasters to be very animated as well, one lady was talking about a young woman who had been murdered and she said “she was strangled! To DEATH!”.

It actually helped me to understand why so many Americans want guns for protection. If you’re constantly hearing about how much danger you’re in, you want to protect yourself.

Here are today’s top news stories on my news source:

Most stunning photography of the past year

Crews working to restore power for Christmas in Quebec

Retired teacher finds presents for hundreds of children in need

KFC for Xmas dinner in Japan

Two N.Y. firefighters recovering after house ambush kills two

Suspect in firefighter shooting killed grandmother, police say

That’s a pretty average list of news items. There’s some good, some bad, but there isn’t a constant barrage of “someones out to get you!”

Anyway, it definitely made a big impression on me.

As compared with, say, Europe guns - and killing with guns - are viewed very differently.

All that weird Schwarzenegger/Rambo/Dirty Harry thing. The glorification, killing as* the* solution - rather than the only unacceptable option, guns as a comfort rather than a danger, etc, etc. It’s pretty much the opposite all the way across media.

Confirmation bias. Here are the sate and local headlines from the Arizona Republic today:
Kids give wish list at Ariz. Mills | Part 2 | 3
Asked: Favorite carols | Cox e-mail issues
Court tosses convictions over closed courtroom
Plane at Sky Harbor catches fire; no injuries
Female inmates give selves gift of recovery
New kidney gives Mesa woman renewed hope
Phoenix food-bank requests up 5 percent
Phoenix firefighters save heart-attack victim
Montini: In memory of modest men
Flagstaff to see snow throughout week

It’s not confirmation bias at all. When I went to Arizona I wasn’t thinking “Hoo boy now I can see some crazy American news!” Not only did I not think it would be different, I hadn’t ever thought about it at all - it had never even crossed my mind. That’s why it made such a big impression on me. It’s just very different than the news that I’ve listened to all my life.

They also had weird candy down there.

You saw one or two stories, and then notices ALL THE OTHER ONES!!!

I just showed you the news items from today. Where are all the murder stories? Now, it’s true that Arizona has a higher than average murder rate, but it’s not 10x or even 2x the average for the US.

We have murder stories in Canada - I’ve seen plenty of murder stories. Hell just this morning I watched out my window as 5 cops tackled a half naked guy who was threatening to kill them all.

It’s the way it’s presented on the news there. It’s presented in a way that tells the viewer that not only did this happen, but it could happen to you!!!111!!!

I wanted to add that my brother lived in Canada most of his life and moved down to Arizona about 7 years ago. During that time, he bought in to the whole “everyone’s out to get me” thinking and bought himself a bunch (yes, a bunch) of guns.

Well, my anecdote is that I’ve lived in the US over 50 years, in several different states. I’ve spent a lot of time in AZ over the years, too. And I don’t see that as a major thrust of news stories about murder here.

Yeah, but no, not quite. The media saturation from news doesn’t compare with the flat out media saturation, period. If you turned on cable TV, and cruised from channel to channel giving each about five seconds per, how long before you see someone brandishing a gun? I’m not talking about some shopping channel with a their Post-Christmas Blow Away Blow Out Sale. Just regular viewing.

About a minute? Two? Less? Remember back in the old days, when you looked in your newspaper to see what movies there were? You know, a page full of miniature movie posters. Did you ever see a page like that without at least one gun being prominently displayed?

We are soaked with guns, saturated with them. That is the problem. And the only real solution to that problem is the long, slow crawl to cultural change. Yuck-o-rama, but there it is.

Oh, Merry Christmas.

my neighbor blew his leaves onto my property with a leaf blower.

Damn you Black and Decker!!!

crimes have always been defined by their intent for a reason. [banning leaf blowers will not stop my neighbor from being an asshole]

“we cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.” - Ron Paul

30 people die in the US everyday in alcohol related deaths…DUI accidents/ liver failure, ect…
and i hear no out-cry to reinstate prohibition.[?] (not like it ever stopped anyone from drinking anyways)

I don’t know, but I’d be willing to bet it’s more than two minutes.

Well, gramps :slight_smile: , when I was growing up, mostly what I saw in the newspapers was stories about racial riots and then student protest/riots. The murder rate, btw, has been steadily declining since it’s peak in about 1991 and is now less than half what it was then.

I agree.

Agree with that, too!

That’s the bad Black and Decker user. What about all the good users.